Board Seat Battle: The CMO’s Dream vs. Reality

Intro VO  00:05

Welcome to revenue rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable, and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:34

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr. And we have another amazing episode for you today, I am joined by Eileen Campbell, Eileen is a force to be reckoned with within the world of marketing and insights from launching us operations for a global insights agency to serving as CEO of a $1 billion consulting firm and serving as cmo for one of the world's most iconic entertainment brands. She's done it all. Oh, and let's not forget about the startup she co founded, which reached 30 million in revenue in just four years. Today, She leads women tuition, a growth advisory service, and serves on a number of boards. Eileen, welcome to revenue rehab, your session begins now.

Eileen Campbell  01:28

So nice to be here with you, Brandi

Brandi Starr  01:30

I am so excited to have you. You know your background, I don't think your your intro totally does your background just because you've definitely done a lot of really awesome things throughout your career. So excited to talk to you. But before we jump into that, I like to break the ice with a little woosah moment that I call buzzword. And so tell me what buzzword would you like to get rid of forever?

Eileen Campbell  02:00

I have to say this is the hardest question I've ever been asked because there are so many of them. You know, I was thinking about it once sort of a phrase not really a buzzword. And that's it is what it is because I think it is the most passive aggressive thing on the face of the earth. And then the other one that I know people have talked about on your show before is low hanging fruit. And that's mostly because I think it sounds dirty.

Brandi Starr  02:26

Okay, I will I know I am one that as much as I agree about it is what it is. It is a phrase that I know that I overuse, and it is I slipped into it to total. It is very much like it's almost like saying agree to disagree. You know, just kind of like it very much is like, yeah, you're wrong, but it is what it is. So we will not use that one, nor will we have any low hanging fruit. Actually, as a mom with a nine year old boy, I know that everything can come across as very. So awesome. Well, now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to revenue rehab today?

Eileen Campbell  03:12

Well, one of the things that people ask me about, particularly women and marketers, is the concept of board service. And a lot of people are interested in board service, but frankly a bit frustrated that the path to that, to that seems more difficult and complicated than it should be. So I'm here to talk to you a little bit about what I think marketers CMOS, and in some cases women can do to prepare themselves better for board service. Awesome.

Brandi Starr  03:45

Yeah, this is definitely a hot topic. I'm a part of a number of different organizations with CMOS, and one of which is empowered CMO. And a lot of the work that they do is around, you know, women's careers and how they move forward. And we've had a lot of conversations about board service. So given that you've served on so many, it's great to be able to talk to you about that today. And I believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, it gives us purpose and most important, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our discussion today. So what's your best hope? What's your intention for our discussion? What would you like people to take away?

Eileen Campbell  04:28

I hope that I can give people a handful of sort of practical, action oriented things they can do if they're genuinely interested in in board service. And I'd say the secondary thing is, I'd like people to really focus on self awareness as to why that is an interesting option for them and, and self understanding because it's not for everyone.

Brandi Starr  04:55

Okay, yeah, and that is a great one I know you know, as I think about my future and my retirement plan and all these sorts of things, you know, considering board service has been one of the things that's been on my list, but after some conversations with people, I'm kinda like, you know, that is for me. So my first question really is aligned to what's out there? What's the potential? So if I look at a lot of the articles and statistics, we see that there are significantly fewer women on boards, and very small numbers around CMOS, or marketing in general being represented on boards. And so based on your experience and knowledge, like, what's the opportunity that is out there, like do we really have space for? You know, I know, there's space as women, but you know, as marketers, is there really space or desire for us on boards?

Eileen Campbell  05:56

I think there definitely is, but I think we have to see our role as marketers more broadly. You know, for example, I think there's, you know, there's that old stereotype of the CMO is sort of the the corporate artiste, you know, the creative. And while that certainly is part of the marketing DNA, if that's how you're perceived inside your own organization, you really need to think about about that, because typically, that's not going to get you into the boardroom, even into your own companies, boardroom, right, one of the things I like to think about is, if I'm the CMO of a company, am I being invited in to present to my own company's board? And then my privy to, you know, what are the concerns in that boardroom, and if that's not happening in your own company, it's highly unlikely that you are presenting the skills that will be valued in someone else's company. So So for me, I think I've been a big advocate for a long time. And I see a copy of your book in the background, cmo to CRO and I've been a big advocate for what I call the numerous CMO, CMOs, who understand not only what they're doing in the area of demand creation, but also in demand capture, and being able to tie a direct line to marketing activity, and financial health of the enterprise. So so there's room for us, but we need to embrace the language of the boardroom, I'd strongly suggest making the CFO, your best friend, I see too many organizations where the tension between the CMO and the CFO is, you know, the CFO thinks the CMO just spends it. The CFO doesn't do enough to educate the CFO on how they help, you know, create economic health in the business. So I think that's, that's a good starting point is what's your relationship like with your CFO and your CEO, of course,

Brandi Starr  07:54

yeah, and I think that is a great point, because for so many years, the head of marketing has been really positioned as needing to have a strong relationship with the head of sales. And not that that relationships, not important, but I would agree that beyond the CEO, your most important relationship in marketing is the CFO, because I can think about early in my career observing, you know, that relationship and seeing how marketing was viewed very much as a cost center. And so you know, things whenever times got tough for or, you know, we had to find money from somewhere, first place that it was cut from was marketing, and with no real understanding of that downstream impact. So I definitely agree there. And I, you know, in my own experience, have seen that as well. So for those people who, you know, are showing up well, in their current companies, they are able to, you know, really embrace the language of the board and focusing on connecting the marketing activities to the revenue. What is board service really look like? Like, what are the places because I know, within boards, there's kind of different roles and things that you know, boards are going to be looking for, what are those roles and places on boards that are most ideally suited? Like where should we as marketers be looking? If we are doing well, you know, within our own organization?

Eileen Campbell  09:34

I think a couple of things one, you know, don't go elephant hunting on your first on your first effort to get on a board. So typically, you have to educate yourself on board servers and what it means and what the responsibilities are because they are significant. And then pursue board seats that are either on not for profits, volunteer organizations, smaller privately held companies, I mean, on publicly traded companies, about 400 board seats open up a year, which is a tiny time. And frankly, way too small a number. And of course, in the US, there are no limits on on board service unless it's a self inflicted one by the company. So there's really low turnover. I mean, we've just seen some mega proxy battles, Disney examples of good one, where low board turnover is real is a real issue. So I think you're starting small, first learning, learning what's required and then starting small. And then you know, I know everybody kind of hates to hear this, but it's all about networking, networking, networking, making sure your desire for board services is known by people who can influence opportunities, including your own C suite executives. So for example, if you're on the radar of your CEO, as somebody who's got high potential, you may say to them, you know, something that I think might better equip me to serve our organization? Is potential board service. Can you keep me in mind, particularly if you work for a company that does acquisitions or does minority investments, and they need an executive to sit on, like a subsidiary board? Those are fantastic opportunities, because you're both serving your current employer, and you're learning about board service. So those are a few examples.

Brandi Starr  11:28

Okay. And yeah, that's something that I hadn't heard before, in, you know, having the conversation with your current CEO. Because I've, in some cases, I've heard the opposite in where people have had the desire to serve on boards, and that has created some conflict within their current organization. So yeah, I do agree that that alignment, and, you know, it's like endorsing someone that's already working for you, to me comes across almost like a bigger endorsement. Right,

Eileen Campbell  12:03

exactly. And I think, you know, I think you're right, like a CMO job is a huge job. And of course, your your CEO may say, you have to go to them with a strategy of how you can handle the added responsibility. The other thing is, you know, a huge number of companies are active in local, not for profits, or even national, not for profits, where they have board seats. So for example, you know, I have someone who is a senior executive in a law firm, she represents her company on the Chamber of Commerce's board of directors, that's a great opportunity to both serve her current employer and get some board experience.

Brandi Starr  12:42

Okay. So I'd like to shift a little bit and talk about what does board service really look like? Because I do think for people who have never done it, it can be a bit romanticized, in terms of, you know, what that looks like. And I've had some casual conversations with different people who have served on boards. And the impression that I get is, it's not always what it's cracked up to be. And that it's, you know, it's not as awesome as most people romanticize it as, and so I'd love to hear just sort of the nitty gritty of like, what does that actually look like, you know, you land that feat? What are you actually doing? What are you responsible for?

Eileen Campbell  13:33

You know, it's, I agree with you completely, some people really romanticize and they think, Oh, wow, this is an easy path to Big Bucks. You know, I probably try and bust both of those myths. That first of all the the days of it being go out for fancy dinner, do a bit of back slapping, tell the CEO how great he is, and, you know, sign off on some forms, for for SEC filings, those days are gone. They're long gone. It's it's way more work than I think people realize. Now, it's not, you know, a 40 hour a week job. But I would say most boards if you're fairly actively engaged, and frankly, I think female board directors tend to take their responsibilities very seriously, because there aren't many of us. And we know we're sort of representing, you know, our community. You know, they tend to work very hard, which means they show up prepared, there's a lot of materials in advance of board meetings, some of it dense and complicated, you know, if you, you know, if you enter into board service without having a really thorough understanding of how to read financials, how to understand, you know, some of those sorts of finance issues, you're going to be working very hard to get through the materials. So, you know, I think you could expect Every time there's a board meeting, you're going to be spending minimum 10 hours of preparation, I would say for those board meetings, within boards, there's usually committee service. Some of the committee's that I think marketers are most attractive to companies are strategy committees, because we have a very macro view of the world, we typically understand consumers or customers in a way that many others on the board don't. So I think I think we can be big contributors on strategy. If we've, if we've managed big teams, or work for a company that does a good job on succession planning, the Nam, Gov. So nominating and Governance Committee, or the compensation committee are areas that that we can be useful. I think the hardest committee, the committee that takes the most work is the is the Finance Committee. And frankly, if you are a female CPA, and you're looking for board service, you don't have to look very far people are looking for for people who can help the audit committee, finance committee audit committee, same thing. And sharing the audit committee is a very big job, a very, very big job. And I think the other thing to keep in mind is their legal obligations with board service. So if you are joining a board, one of the first questions you want to ask is does it have directors and officers insurance? Very few transactions happen these days, where the company or the board doesn't get sued. So say, for example, you work for a public company that they're taking private, or your work for a private company that's IP owing, somebody, somewhere, is going to question whether you exercise your fiduciary responsibilities. And, and so there's a lot of legal liability associated with with board work. So you need to be aware of that, because that's, that's certainly a risk.

Brandi Starr  17:04

Yeah, and that is a really great point, a lot of people think about the reward of birth board service, but not necessarily the risk of it all.

Eileen Campbell  17:14

And also reputational risk, right? If you, you know, sit on the board of a company that has some sort of serious public relations problem, you by by default will, you know, take some of that

Brandi Starr  17:28

heat? Yeah, that's a really great point as well, because we do see that especially, you know, with social media being so big now, you know, things that used to not make national news that were, you know, able to kind of be handled and swept under the rug do become big things, and, you know, canceled culture is, you know, a very, right, wrong or indifferent is a very real thing. And people are going after people based on things that organizations are doing. So, that, you know, is definitely, I would say more of a consideration now than it may have been in years past.

Eileen Campbell  18:11

Right. And, you know, not every board seats, a good board seat for, for you personally, you know, I think you really need to look at does that company, reflect my personal values? Do I genuinely have something to contribute? Or are they just trying to tick some boxes? And so I think I think I strongly recommend that people don't necessarily say no, or don't necessarily say yes, to the first board seat, you're offered, you know, you really need to feel deeply committed, and ideally, very proud of the organization that you're, you're helping to drive.

Brandi Starr  18:49

Okay. And so one of the things that came up and another discussion, that was sort of a myth versus reality that I'd like to get your two cents on. There was a CMO that I was chatting with, and she was talking about her first board service and how, you know, she went into the board meeting and, you know, went through all the materials saw what was presented, and she recognized that there were some serious challenges in the way certain things were done. And where she really struggled was as a board member. She had no or she felt that she had no real influence on what was going to happen. Like it almost was, like being a voting committee is kind of the way she described it was, you know, there's something put on the ballot and I get to vote yes or no, without really being able to, you know, mold and shape and provide input. And that was like her AHA of like, this isn't quite what I want. Like I want to really be able to shape and grow, you know, organizations I support. And I'm giving my time to and she just, she felt like she wasn't able to do that. And this is obviously one person's experience. So I'd love to hear your thoughts is that the reality of, you know, as a board member, you're not really guiding the organization? Or are there opportunities where, you know, you can lean into some of your expertise, you

Eileen Campbell  20:27

definitely can lean into some of your expertise. But I think that people need to enter board serve as very clear about what the role of the board is. And it is not to be an operator not to guide operations. You know, I have a friend who puts it really simply and said, the board has one job, the board job is to hire or fire a CEO. Now, it's more complex than that. But ultimately, that's the board is all about is the CEO doing the right thing. And if you know, for example, somebody seeing things that they feel are, you know, not right, challenging, maybe even unethical, they definitely should be having conversations with their board chair. The interesting thing is most of the dissent, discussion, hard conversations happen outside the boardroom. And usually, by the time something goes to a vote in the boardroom, there is the expectation that the directors have worked it out. And even if you're agreeing to with some reluctance, you generally agree, it's sort of like, you know, like, rules of thumb, we can we can disagree with the decision. But if the group made it, we need to stand by it. So, so I would suggest that a lot of those conversations about what you're seeing and what can be done about it, it should be done in like, you know, giving a call to some of your other directors, what do you think about this? How are you feeling about it, having a conversation with your board chair, maybe with the board chair, sitting down with the CEO, and saying, here's some things that, you know, we're observing, and it gives us the impression that, you know, there might be a problem here. So there, there are definitely ways to approach it. But it is very rare inside an actual board meeting for something to come to a vote and have there be a big brouhaha about it. Usually, that's all worked out before you get to the vote.

Brandi Starr  22:36

Okay. So yeah, and I think it is the the way you phrase that I like that is it's not your job to be an operator. And I think that is the place where being on a board is a bit romanticized is it's, it's almost, and this is, you know, kind of my assessment of other people, but it's almost like, I don't want to be the CEO. But I want to, you know, I want to be able to influence the org as a whole. And the thought processes that board service is the way to do that. And, you know, what I'm hearing from what you're saying is, really, it's not not in that sense of like, you're not going in and serving in that, that kind of, you know, that operator role, it is really that level, it's truly that level above. And I think that can be a hard mentality shift.

Eileen Campbell  23:30

It's really hard. Especially if you're a doer, and you know, particularly if you're a control freak, I mean, I have deep Control Freak tendencies. And so you go in, and you go, Well, I know how to fix this. And it's not that you shouldn't raise that you have suggestions on how something can be fixed, that's absolutely part of your job. But you're not jumping in and doing it.

Brandi Starr  23:58

Yeah. And I think, you know, there's those different stages in your career, like going from being an individual contributor to then being a leader and a manager, there is that same sort of, you know, break moment where you have to break yourself out of being the doer. And then I think this shift is very similar in that, not that you don't have an opinion, but it's like, you have to give that you know, give the two cents and leave it there as opposed to seeing it through interpreting that the way that you mean it. And

Eileen Campbell  24:30

also, you have to remind yourself all the time that you have a fiduciary responsibility to the company and all of its shareholders. So, you know, if you see somebody squandering money that could be contributing to the bottom line in the business, of course, that's something that as a director, you have to say, Gee, let's talk about whether this level of spend is warranted or Gee, that acquisition seems super risky. To me, let's talk about this. Because ultimately, your fiduciary responsibility is to the company. It's not to the CEO. It is to the company and its shareholders. And, you know, in the world of ESG, which is sort of a dirty word right now, but in the world of ESG, its to its stakeholders. So what is the company's responsibility to its employees to the communities in which it operates? And I think, you know, most boards do tend to think in that stakeholder world, though, like I said, there's been a bit of a backlash around ESG in the last few years.

Brandi Starr  25:37

Yeah, and I mean, I, you know, like ESD challenges aside, I am of that mindset of like it, the stakeholders is everyone. Because, I mean, we have seen what happens to people when companies make decisions that are only in the best interest of the company. And that just tends to not really be good for anybody, you know, right. And

Eileen Campbell  26:03

often they're there, they may be short term in the best interest of the company. But you know, frankly, making your company a pariah in its community, or creating, you know, active dissent amongst your employees. Well, that's not really in the best interest of the company, even if it drops some money to the bottom line in the short term.

Brandi Starr  26:24

Yeah, yeah. And that's really what I was getting at, and that we've seen with some large companies, like they become horrible places to work, but you look at their financial statement, and they're amazing. And, you know, how do you find that balance of let's make some money, but also, you know, be good humans be, you know, we're probably responsible. Yeah. And so thinking about, you know, you talked about self evaluation, self reflection, for those people who are, you know, considering it, what are some of the things that they should be thinking about? Or, you know, that inward look, what are some of the questions that people should be asking themselves, to figure out if board service is right for them?

Eileen Campbell  27:12

I think really understanding your personal motivations. So if it's, you know, prestige, you know, I want to be seen as a leader, there might be ways to do that. One, not for profit boards, if it's an income stream, you know, I think this could be a great kind of post career or portfolio career, you know, recognize that, with the exception of public company boards, necessarily big dough, in board service in private companies, there's often often private companies will, you know, offer equity. And, you know, in some cases, that can be a big winner, right? Wouldn't you have loved to have had equity in, you know, open AI, or, you know, you know, Facebook back in the day kind of thing. So, I'm not saying that equity is a bad thing, but if you're looking for for cash flow in the way that you would have a salary, board services, and necessarily, so if that's your motivation, you might want to think it through. And also likely, the first couple of board seats you take are either going to be volunteer, low compensation, kinds of kinds of roles, to qualify yourself for a better role. So I'd really try and understand your personal motivation. If it's the you know, you really just want to give back, you've learned a lot over the course of your career. You think a CEO could really benefit from your knowledge, that's a fantastic motivation, right? That's a really fantastic motivation. Now, that's also motivation, you can fill in a lot of other ways than board service. So so to me, it's just weighing why you're interested in board service. It can be born out of frustration that you've worked for companies that you think didn't have a very good listening culture, and your desire to help shape another company in that in that fashion. But I think just really understanding your own why, which I think is important in sort of everything in life, right? Why do I want to do this? Why does this matter to me? And that helps guide your choices.

Brandi Starr  29:23

Yeah, and I think that I mean, starting with why is always a great place to start. But just listening to you articulate that. I think the other piece that comes to mind is going through that exercise should also prompt you to think about what are the other ways I could accomplish this? Why? Because I do think sometimes board service is the thing that's most in front of us. You know, if you think about career progression, a lot of times that is positioned as that end of career step. I'm in, like semi retirement or even you know? And so I do think that that is like, Okay, what is the motivation? I get my why? What are the other ways I could accomplish this, why to then see which of those is the best because you could still land on board service being the thing you really want to do. But like recently, something that I've seen, especially where you talked about that good motivation of having a lot of knowledge, wanting to give back and support CEOs and growing businesses that you believe in, I've seen a lot of people, you know, fractional is huge right now, like, everything's fractional. But that has been a way that some people have been able to fulfill that desire, where, you know, board service may have been the way they thought about it before. So I do think the way that you position that is great, because, you know, you think about your why, and then thinking about all of your options, so that if you are making this commitment, you know, especially since it does come with, you know, legal and financial accountability, that you're making it for all the right reasons. Exactly, exactly. And so my last question really is there's a lot of I don't know what I don't know. So there may be things that I have not thought to ask you about based on my limited knowledge of, you know, the, like what sitting on a board looks like, so, is there anything, I haven't thought to ask you about that you feel important for CMOS out there who are considering board service, that they should know that they should think about anything I haven't thought to ask,

Eileen Campbell  31:47

the only thing I would say is that if somebody really feels committed that board services, something they'd like to do, and they're at an earlier stage in their career as a CMO, for example, I would, I would seriously consider whether there's an opportunity for you to get p&l responsibility. So whether that's, you know, going from a basically a staff job to some sort of line job, if you really, really, really want to serve on a board, it will be easier. If you've had p&l experience, it's not an absolute, but it will be easier. So you know, I think that that's something that that people should consider. And if you don't feel like you have the skill set for p&l responsibility, you might want to question whether you have the skill set for board service.

Brandi Starr  32:36

And that's a good point, especially or, you know, if someone is earlier in their career as a CMO, that may be an opportunity where you say, this is a gap that I need to learn and build that knowledge gap before I get to the point of being ready. Exactly. 100%. Yeah. And I think, you know, when I hear a lot of people talk about getting ready for board service, I hear people talk about the board file and your network and communicating. But I do think that there are things like that, like you talked about the relationship with the CFO, and having that p&l responsibility, that thinking about those things, and filling some of those gaps before you're ready, is things that people can be, you know, or are things that people can be working on long before they need a board bio, or start talking to others about, you know, their desires. Exactly. Awesome. Well, talking about our challenges is just the first step and nothing changes if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework, but here at revenue rehab, we like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. And so I think you've given us a bunch of action items through the discussion. But I'll still ask, what's your one thing if someone is listening, and you know, they have they have that dream of sitting on boards? What would be the first step that you would recommend?

Eileen Campbell  34:05

I'd say the very first step would be that personal audit, you know, audit your own intentions, why this is of interest. And if you've done that, and you're sure that's what you want, then start getting some education. You know, organizations like women, Corporate Directors, the National Association of Corporate Directors, offer good board education courses, because it is a different world, right? It's not like going into a meeting in your company. You're going to a board meeting and there's protocol, and there's a language of its own. So if you really know it's what you want to do, start getting yourself educated as soon as you can. Awesome.

Brandi Starr  34:40

I love that and we'll make sure to link to those resources as well. Well, Eileen, I have enjoyed our discussion, but that's our time for today. But before we go, how can our audience stay connected with you?

Eileen Campbell  34:56

While you can you can certainly follow my website which is Women intuition.com Or feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or via email. And my email is Eileen at women intuition.com.

Brandi Starr  35:08

Awesome. Well, we will make sure to link to women and tuition as well as your LinkedIn in the show notes. So wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, check the show notes so that you can connect with Eileen. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Eileen Campbell  35:27

Thanks so much brandi. It's been it's been really fun chatting with you. Awesome.

Brandi Starr  35:31

Well, thanks, everyone for joining me. I hope you have enjoyed my conversation with Eileen, I can't believe we're at the end. We'll see you next time.

Eileen Campbell  35:40

Bye bye.

Outro VO  35:42

You've been listening to Reverend rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning has just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue rehab dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue we have. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.