Deciphering Customer Desires: From Insights to Brand Promise Delivery

Intro VO  00:06

Welcome to Revenue Rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:35

Hello Hello Hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Jim combs. Jim is one of those rare individual who lives and breathes at the experience design intersection of creative business and technology. As VP of experience, strategy and research at human spark. Jim leads development and integration of digital and traditional brands, products, services, and marketing for Global Fortune 1000 companies. Jim has an impressive 25 year resume leading successful teams and global strategic level initiatives for clients including Philips healthcare three, Cox Communications, at&t ups, the Coca Cola Company, Home Depot IHG, and so many more. Jim started his career in the music business as a marketing and sales lead for CBS Records in the heyday of vinyl records before leaving after five years, when CDs were released to be a pioneer in new media, e commerce and enterprise digital transformation. He continues to compose, record, release and perform his own music music, which can be heard on radio and streaming channels around the world. Jim, welcome to Revenue Rehab, your session begins now.

Jim Combs  02:05

Let's rock it

Brandi Starr  02:07

Ah, yes, I welcome to the studio. Yes, I say I think you are you I'd say you'd be our the second musician I've had on Revenue Rehab. Russ summers also records and has some things on Spotify, which I think is just so cool.

Jim Combs  02:25

There's lots and lots of people in marketing that are musicians, I find that a real solid connection amongst marketeers.

Brandi Starr  02:34

Yeah, we're gonna have to get a jam session here at Revenue Rehab. I have no musical talents, but I definitely like to dance along.

Jim Combs  02:44

There you go. You need to you need to be on both sides of the stage.

Brandi Starr  02:48

Awesome. Well, I like to break the ice with a little woozy moment that I call buzzword. banishment. So tell me, what is an overused buzzword that you would like to get rid of forever?

Jim Combs  03:03

Well, I think the one the phrase that I would love to eliminate it's an old one, but it's one that I continually run into, especially with conversations with new clients. And that's a focus group.

Brandi Starr  03:20

Yeah, that one, you know, focus groups have been around for ever. Why don't you like that buzzword? How are you seeing people use it?

Jim Combs  03:28

I actually haven't done a focus group in so in so long, it seems like it is it is before the year 2000 was the last time I really did a focus group. And I think that in the experience space, things have shifted. There's I think better use of both qualitative and quantitative research out there. And and focus groups are really there's a really narrow usage for it. And so when when clients come to me and say, we'd like to do some research, like some focus groups, I'm like, oh, let's step back. What are you trying to accomplish?

Brandi Starr  04:05

Awesome. Yeah, I do think that there are some techniques that at a certain point of, you know, evolve and either become outdated or start to look really differently. So I can promise we won't talk about focus groups here today. But now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to Revenue Rehab?

Jim Combs  04:28

Well, I would like folks to understand their customer's real desires, needs and pain points across the entire customer journey. And excuse me, the business lifecycle. I think that once you do that, you can really translate those customer perspectives into service, blueprints, business requirements for all types of solution experiences, whether that be products services message Jing as well as identify any potential changes that are needed within a company's culture, their process their technology to support the experience needed to deliver on the company's brand promise.

Brandi Starr  05:16

Awesome. Well, I you know, before we dive into that, because I have lots of questions. I believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, it gives us purpose, and most importantly, it helps our audience to understand what they should expect from our conversation today. So for those that are listening, what are you? What do you what's your best hopes for our conversation? What do you want people to take away?

Jim Combs  05:40

Well, I hope to at least at a high level, talk a little bit about techniques, but more importantly about the strategy and why those those type of techniques, qualitative and quantitative research techniques are important for really putting forth the best experience that you're going to deliver in the marketplace.

Brandi Starr  06:02

Okay, well, my first question is just going back to how you phrase the problem, I, there was a little bit of an emphasis on real desires and needs. And so I want to dive into that a little bit. I know language is always purposeful. And so my guess from that statement is that you're seeing that people have a perception of what their customer's needs and desires are. But those may or may not be the real needs and desires. So I'd love to have you expand on your your choice of words there.

Jim Combs  06:37

I think, I think customers, our clients, and companies in general, know their customers very well from their perspective. And over time, they personalize that to reflect what they believe their customers are really doing, the way they're behaving the way that they are thinking, what they're feeling. And but when we when we often question customers, they haven't really talked to those people to find out, it's it's more of a learned belief over time. And they may have done some element of customer research back in the past. But now they've relied more on market research, third party analysis and other ways that they believe their customers are, why they're why they are in a relationship with with the companies that they are. And I think that things change, especially since COVID has shifted so many businesses and their relationships with their customers. That it's it's a it's a totally new ballgame game. And you really have to go back to the well, constantly to really understand the way a customer's landscape is, is where they're adapting and where they are changing and what they need is changing just to make sure that your your products and services are still aligned with what those customers are trying to do.

Brandi Starr  08:20

Perfect. Yeah, I know, in my own experience, I have definitely had that happen, just real anecdotally talking to a new client about how they found us what motivated them to choose US versus, you know, whoever else they were talking to. And very often, the responses I get are so different from what we expect the motivators to be that those conversations are always a lesson learned for me, because there are things that are air, quote, selling points that, you know, don't always seem like something you should really be talking about. I remember during the height of the pandemic, the fact that we had a shorter cancellation clause was one of the differentiators, you know, that like when it came down to two very qualified consultants, they ended up going with us because there was so much uncertainty in the world at that time. You know, there were tons of layoffs, and we didn't know how long we were going to be home and all those things. So that safety net for them of being able to cancel in a shorter period was the final factor. I would have never in a million years marketed. The fact that we have shorter cancellation periods like you know, we rarely have clients cancel and it's not something you really want to promote. But at that time in that climate, that really was a selling point because everybody was scared to make decisions.

Jim Combs  09:52

I think that that's a that's a great example in terms of before the pandemic, probably customers were wanting to make sure that you are going to be there for them for a long period of time. And that you you had a commitment. And so it the the that versus flexibility in terms of how they're managing the relationships, the priorities shifted, and you've got to constantly be up to date with that. So that's a great example.

Brandi Starr  10:21

Yeah, so we're talking about why this is important. We talked about from your your buzzword, that focus groups really aren't the way this is happening. Now, let's jump into the techniques. How are people? Really, you know, I talk a lot, I've had several interviews where we've talked about voice of customer, I've had a number of guests who there, you know, one thing at the end has been talking to customers or talking to the people who talk to customers. So there's definitely a lot of conversation around how do we effectively gain this real insight? What are the techniques that you are seeing that work at this point?

Jim Combs  11:01

Well, there's, there's there's a couple of key things that that we often do is that we start in a type of new engagement with a customer that is trying to find out their customers in more detail around that is really to understand the organizational point of view, because there is a lot of ingrained and institutional knowledge about customers. And so we will often spend a good deal of time just interviewing stakeholders that are looking to learn about their customers to understand where are they starting from? What what are their perceptions, kind of what's their baseline that they're moving from? And then as importantly, what are they trying to what from a business standpoint are they trying to accomplish, and really get them to become very definitive in that point of view, often, what we'll find is that there are differences of opinions within an organization. So whether you have a marketing group, you may have a, a product group you may have there may be technology involved. So they're the technologist that are part of that senior executives versus line level, there may be a lot of different ways to look at the elephant. And what we what we really strive to do is to get all of that out on the table, in a way that as a group, we can put together kind of that starting point point of view, not that we're going to resolve any of those differences, but at least to understand what it is that we are then trying to go out to to understand. The second thing is just really what, what's driving this, this new inquiry into their customers? Is there new products or new services that are getting ready to be introduced? Is there some market impact that they are trying to respond to new competition or new market market introductions? That is leading them to kind of fill some gaps? Are they trying to change their own culture and become more customer centered? Or their new products that are that are requiring a different point, point of view or lens on that? So getting that kind of business strategy out on the table as well? You know, are they trying to improve revenue, lower costs, there's all sorts of things that may be driving them for this understanding. And then once we do that, it's Who do they think their customers are going to provide the best input on answering those questions, and providing a viewpoint that they could then take action upon. And I think that that's really the key. The key item is that many times research is used as a way to defer or delay action. Let's go out and do some research just to make sure we're going in the right direction. So what we want to make sure is that the end end of this exercise so that what they're learning, they're truly going to be able to, to take action in terms of setting up marketing plans or communications plan and forming solutions, prioritizing a roadmap, those kinds of things. So that's, that's really how we get started before we even start to go out and find the people we're going to talk to, or step into the field to do that research.

Brandi Starr  14:37

Okay, so I love starting with the organizational point of view, because I've definitely been a part of organizations and consulted for organizations where I don't think that point of view is the same across the board. You know, there is this differing view of who we're trying to talk to, and in some cases it is, who's the decision maker maker versus the influencer? And where should we be, you know, aiming? In some cases, there is truly a fundamental difference in who the buyer really is. And so I like that thought process of establishing what the organizational point of view is, and where there are opposing views. Do you feel like where people are not on the same page? I know you said in that initial phase, you're not going to resolve that? Do you feel like it is something that is important to resolve? Like it does that if there is a lot of disconnect there? Does that become an objective in really being able to decipher the customer desires and use that to deliver on the brand promise? Like, is it okay for these things to, you know, for people to have differing opinions? Or do we need to get on the same page?

Jim Combs  15:52

No, I think that's a great question. And what I find is that, oftentimes, in these situations, the differences of opinion are, are appropriate. A sales group who's whose job is in revenue, right to make sure that revenue pipeline is full, may have a different perspective than the people that are designing the product or the service for the customers. And I so I think that it is, ultimately you certainly want to align those points of view, have commonality in terms of the ultimate goals that you're trying to achieve. But I think it's okay for those differences, to exist for a period of time, and especially up front, I think that it's, it provides a lot of fodder for how we approach a research project, oftentimes, what I'll tell people is that you're going to, you're going to ask us for a scope, that's, you know, I'm going to say, it's pretty, pretty tight and narrow, you've got some certain things that you're trying to answer. Those may may be very broad questions, but it's still, you know, it's, it's, it's not very deep, it's, it's wide, or it's less, less wide, and it's deeper, or it's very narrow, and it's really deep. But when we go through this process, when you talk to real customers, in real situations, what you learn from those interactions is going to go far beyond the scope of the actual initiative, and is actually going, there's going to be a lot of useful data that's going to come out of that, that will be useful to these other stakeholders that maybe aren't so invested in this specific piece of scope that you're on, is, you know, an example is that the way the type of expertise that's needed, once a new product comes out may require the type of hiring that occurs for a product specialist or a sales specialist may shift because of what customers are saying, but that may not have anything to do with what we're, we're talking to the customer about. So it's a very rich, what I find is that when we do this kind of direct interaction with customers, it's a very rich and valuable data source, it becomes a Bible that can be mined for a long period of time. But that's not necessarily what we're going into it. And that's, again, why we at least want to know that more 360 view coming into it, just to understand what data not to deprioritize, we want to keep all the data coming. But more More importantly, you know, getting the answers to the people that need it, or informing them that hey, there's some there's some learning here that you may want to do another phase of research just focused on that area.

Brandi Starr  19:02

Okay, and I know you talked a lot about the data. And I'm sure that the data that comes out of this kind of work, and in really uncovering your needs is going to vary business to business. But I know the insights from these projects is the foundation of how we you know, really deliver on that brand promise. So talk to me about what kinds of insights we get out. So, you know, if I'm a CMO, and I've not embarked on this kind of project, what sort of insights and I think you hit on a few of those in your last answer, but I'd like to dig a bit deeper in what can I expect to take away from doing this kind of research?

Jim Combs  19:45

I think I think probably the the thing that comes away with this that may not have occurred in other research and especially if you're doing quant or other types is really understanding the Why a customer behaves or acts or feels the way that they do. In a lot of ways, what people know is they know what is happening, I can observe, right? I can see my web metrics that people are going here, there, doing this paddling through, and they're abandoning their shopping cart, I'm just using an example. But I don't know why. And so when you when you actually are working with, with real folks, in those situations is that you find out what has influenced them before they get into that transactional or that interaction moment? Why they are coming there in the first place? What has led them to that point? What what did they believe prior to that interaction? What did they expect? What then happened? How did they react in that situation? Was it a pleasant experience, a challenging experience, delightful experience? And then how did it? How did it go all the way down. And so we're looking at, at really an omni channel type of experience, because they learn about companies before, they may hit a specific touch point, whether that's in a store, or online, things happen after the sale, their stuff gets delivered to them, they have an unboxing experience, they actually try things on our or use, the things that they're getting, they have a service interaction, all of this stuff is, you know, is is a journey. But it's farther belong, that rather than okay, they wound up on my site, and then yes, they pressed by, and that's my point of view, you're getting a much broader set of what's really going on and what the real touch points are. And then where you can provide influence into those touch points, and make them a smoother, better, you know, more profitable experience for everybody along the path. And then the thing is, is what happens next. So I love to look at, you know, long term customer lifecycle. So it's not just, I'm going to buy one product and go to the end of that, but I'm going to be a repeat customer. So what happens when I come back? How is that experience? Now? What are my expectations? Well, you should know me, I shouldn't have to put my information. You know, you've now seen what I've bought. So you should provide recommendations, you should do other things. And so we start to look at a long life cycle. And then at a certain point, people, you know, they'd say, siren, Ara, and I'm going to, I'm moving to another brand. And you want to make that experience as positive as possible as well. So I think that our perspective is always to to see things from a broad based, as many touch points along the way with as much understanding of what is influencing and drawing people through but also preventing challenges and pushing people away across that entire experience.

Brandi Starr  23:33

Yeah, and thinking about what you just said about what pushes people away, when you're going through and doing this research. I know the most common approach is to talk to current customers, who did actually purchase, do you recommend looking at people who have interacted with the brand but did not buy? Like? Is that a part of your research approach?

Jim Combs  23:55

Yeah, we will often want to see a mix of people that are existing or or at least known customers, those that are no longer, right may have been a customer in the past, but are no longer customers. And then we also would like to talk to competitive customers, or people that are, you know, new into the category space, just to get a more blank slate view of things I think you learn from from all of those different perspectives. And again, you can either do it in a branded or an unbranded type of study. So sometimes we'll even go in with as a blind study, and we won't even tell the folks that we're dealing with who the customer really is. Other times it works to our benefit so we can we can go down different paths.

Brandi Starr  24:51

Okay, and I know in general, I'm a strong believer that the head of marketing drives a lot lot of initiatives and insight that goes just beyond marketing and driving the, you know, business holistically forward. And so there's some pretty obvious benefits to marketing of doing this kind of research and being able to get your messaging and your calls to action, and all of those things, right. And I think that's kind of the obvious piece of this. But I know in, you know, you talk a lot about delivering on that brand promise, which is so much bigger than just what marketing owns. And so, you know, thinking about the heads of marketing, listening to this, I think, you know, if many are like me, you start to think about how this would better my team and my work. But I'd also like to hear some of the applications beyond marketing, and how this, you know, doing this research can really change the foundation and the fundamentals across the organization.

Jim Combs  25:58

Yeah, that's a great question. What what we find is that you, you really want to start, at least from an analysis standpoint of what is the brand as an umbrella trying to accomplish? Right? What is its mission and vision that it's trying to do? And then how, how do those attributes translate into different types of products, services channels, you know, that they that the brand presents itself out in the world? And then from our standpoint, where where does the particular product service customer kind of live in that space? And so we're always trying to map from that top level down brand, brand ideals down perspective, but also then from a customer up? What are they what are they experiencing? How do they verbalize it? What type of attributes are they using? And are those things in alignment? You know, they they can be different, but or at least are they aligned in terms of we're we're meeting expectations across? Or is there some something going on that is really out of whack? Oftentimes, especially in the in the b2b space, right? There's, there's often this thing called billing, right, the payment side of the business is often dictated by systems and fairly rigid processes that are associated with those systems. And if a customer has a problem with their billing, or how they are buying products and services through them, that may be totally at odds of the way that maybe an elegant product or service was presented on the front side. And so it's it's not that they don't have that in mind, but it's them looking at where might that break down again, in these different touchpoints? Over the, the the journey of customer over the lifecycle of their relationship? And then how might we be able to then start to identify those as opportunity areas now to spread our brand equity in places that may not have the spotlight shined on it, like other parts of the business?

Brandi Starr  28:29

Yeah, and I think we have all experienced that, where you have an amazing experience with one part of the business, and then there's something else on the back end that you're like, are these the same companies? Like how, you know, how is this disconnect exist? And my last question, I want to, you know, dig into that a little deeper in multiple parts of this conversation, you brought up culture, and how some of this insight will indicate that there is a change needed in the overall company culture. And, you know, I know at least for me, the first time that I heard you say that there was a, okay, how are these connected kind of moment? And I've been gonna sitting here thinking about it, and I have more of an idea, but I would love to hear from you, in your perspective in doing this kind of research. How does that lead to a need for a culture change in the business?

Jim Combs  29:34

Well, I think that cultures are oftentimes constructed around the the way that a business operates, right the way that they go to market and because a lot of businesses and especially in the b2b space, it's it's very much a an operational sales operation, marketing operation drill Even business doing a lot of work in the healthcare space, and those products have been around for a long time, it takes them five years or more to bring a new product to market with all of the regulation that goes on. And so the organizations are really tuned from a culture standpoint, for driving that revenue. When you get into a customer situation and understanding how the customer is changing, that landscape is changing, then there is a culture shift required, where you're going from, again, that I think I know what my customer is feeling and believing and acting to, I know, what they're feeling believing and acting, because I've actually talked directly to them. And I'm getting this insight. Again, it's not it's not verbatim, we have to do synthesis, we have to translate that. But there is a change to say, I know best about my customers, too, I need to open my mind up a bit and let that customer point event point of view in to the conversation. So that I can start to adjust the way that I'm selling. Right I'm I'm going from a transactional sale to a relationship sale, I'm going from selling products and and you know physical things to software as a service. I'm going from buy it and install it and move on to now it's a subscription. And that's a long term. So oftentimes these are these are things that are accompanying the way that the business is going. Anyway, but what we're doing is we're providing some, some support and some foundation that allows us to shift that river, build the bank up. So we can shift the river and point it more in that customer center point of view. So that it can affect the offers that we're bringing to market the way that we're doing our pricing, the types of products and services that we're we're designing the messaging that we're using to convey all of the benefits to our customers. And then the way we're treating them post sale, which is becoming more and more of a requirement, consultative point of view as we go forward.

Brandi Starr  32:37

Awesome. Well, I appreciate it. This is a topic that I know that I could talk for hours and hours and hours on end, because I find it so interesting. And there is so much insight that can come from doing this research. But talking about our challenges is just the first step and nothing changes if nothing changes. And so, in traditional therapy, the therapist generally asked the client to do some homework, but in this case, at Revenue Rehab, we'd like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So I like to have our listeners to walk away with that one thing. If, if what you've said has resonated with them. If you know if our heads of marketing really want to get to those real desires and figure out how to fundamentally impact the business and deliver on the brand promise. What's the next step? What is that one action item that you would recommend that people take?

Jim Combs  33:37

I think it really is assessing how much of the customer voice is present in the current marketing process. And how often infrequent is that interaction with customers? That is a great first step. If it's already happening a lot, then probably in a great place. If it doesn't happen very often, or it hasn't happened very often or it's not happening at all. Again, that should that should lead you down a path.

Brandi Starr  34:07

Awesome. I like that self assessment is always are generally always a great starting point to figure out if there is a problem. And you know whether we need to move forward. Well, Jim, I have appreciated our discussion. But that's our time for today. And before we go tell our audience how they can connect with you. And if anyone is interested in continuing the conversation, how they should reach out.

Jim Combs  34:36

Sure. First, thank you, Brandi. This has been a fabulous conversation and I could go on and on as well. If folks want to reach me, you can look at a human spark.com We've got contact information up there. You can also find me on LinkedIn as Jim combs at on human Spark, as well. So So those are two great ways to reach out and get a hold of me. Love to continue the conversation.

Brandi Starr  35:06

Yes, we will make sure to link to both humans bark and your LinkedIn in the show notes. So wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, check out the show notes and connect with Jim. Well, Jim, thank you so, so much for taking the time today. And thanks, everyone for joining us. I can't believe we are already at the end. We will see you next time.

Outro VO  35:31

You've been listening to Revenue Rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning is just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue we have dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at Revenue Rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.