DEI Cuts are Revenue Cuts #ChangeMyMind

Brandi Starr [00:00:35]:
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host, Brandy Star and we have another amazing episode for you today. Diversity, equity and inclusion aren't just buzzwords, they are business drivers. Yet in response to political pressures and recent executive orders, companies are scaling back their DEI efforts. Here's the reality. These cuts aren't just a PR decision, they're a revenue problem. Companies that deprioritize DEI are losing customers, market share and long term brand loyalty. So is your organization making a smart move or setting itself up for decline? If you think DEI is expendable, then this conversation might change your mind.

Brandi Starr [00:01:26]:
Today I am thrilled to be joined by Sharon Nyangweso and Anna Radulovski. Sharon is the founder and CEO of QuakeLab. She specializes in a radical new approach to problem solving with an equity lens that is measurable, strategic and based on a strong foundation in design thinking. Anna is the founder of WomenTech Network with 150,000 members across 179 countries, as well as coding girls and executive women in tech. Anna, Sharon, welcome to Revenue Rehab. Your session begins now.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:02:10]:
It's nice to be here. Thank you.

Anna Radulovski [00:02:13]:
Yes, both, thanks for this wonderful intro.

Brandi Starr [00:02:17]:
Yes, you both are impressive. It is. It was hard to sort of cram the highlights of your backgrounds into such a short intro. But I'm really, really excited for our discussion today and I think this is such an important conversation. We're just going to skip buzzword banishments and we are going to jump straight in to our conversation because this year we have, you know, our, our news feeds are flooded with this company is abandoning DEI, that company is holding true. Here's the impacts that we're seeing and I don't think people really understand the impact that these efforts have had, not just on, you know, creating diversity for the sake of diversity, but really impact on business. And so, you know, I think this is one of those things that impacts so many companies, yet it's misunderstood and overlooked. And so I like to start with just a little setting foundation so that we are all working from the same playing field.

Brandi Starr [00:03:34]:
And so I'd love to hear from both of you if you can share your personal definitions of diversity, equity and inclusion and why these principles are essential for building Resilience and forward thinking businesses. And so, Sharon, I'll start with you.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:03:52]:
Yeah, thank you. So the way I've always thought about DEI isn't even so much as like three separate letters, but all under the umbrella of essentially equity. And that's the idea that we are, funny enough, you talking about playing field. We're not all starting at the same playing field. And they are kind of invisible, invisible hands that determine how far some of us are getting, how big the boundaries are, how big the barriers are, and how just hard the push is to move a little bit faster, a little more forward. And so I think in my line of work, what I try and do is to focus specifically on those systems, on those invisible systems and figure out what needs to be redesigned, what needs to be amplified, what needs to be completely undone.

Brandi Starr [00:04:45]:
Okay, love that. And Anna, I'll give you an opportunity to give your definition as well.

Anna Radulovski [00:04:52]:
Yeah, I agree. And the thought about the barriers, it hits home because as part of my work at Women Tech Network, we are about breaking barriers, breaking the glass ceiling, the silicon ceiling for women in technology. If I had to define these three terms, diversity, equity and inclusion, I would define them in the following way. Diversity is about embracing differences everyone brings to the table. Diversity of thought, whether those are someone's race, age, ethnicity, religion, gender, physical ability, or other aspects of social identity. Equity is treating everyone fairly and providing equal opportunities. And inclusion is respecting everyone's voice and creating a culture in which people from all backgrounds feel heard, appreciated, seen, valued. So this my definition of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Brandi Starr [00:05:49]:
Perfect. And you know, we see a lot of what's happening related to businesses in the B2C space, especially retail. You know, we've got one example of Costco who has, you know, held true to their values and importance related to DEI. And we've seen, you know, in the most recent months, their market share and their revenue going up. On the opposite end of the spectrum, we see Walmart as an example that has taken the opposite perspective. And one of those things is, I think one of the myths that I see is that this is more of just a consumer problem in terms of if you're a retailer, this is impacting you and most of our audience are B2B marketers. And I would argue that this is a challenge across all business. And so I'd like to start or, or continue with what's the most damaging myth related to DEI that you feel is holding companies back? And I'll open it up to whoever'd like to answer.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:06:59]:
Yeah, I can probably Jump in here first because I think our, our big original sin when it comes to this space, but also business in general is thinking about equity as a moral imperative rather than a business imperative. And I say this because once you approach it as a moral imperative, it gets relegated to a few different areas. One, it becomes, is this going to give me social capital? This is what you're seeing for a lot of businesses that jumped onto the idea of DEI around 2020. It wasn't the first time. We get ebbs and flows every few years, decades. They jumped onto this because it gave them social capital, because everyone was talking about this and they wanted to essentially cash in. This is what we do as businesses. We cash in on where revenue can be positively impact.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:07:47]:
But the approach was to see it as a moral imperative. People are angry, people feel emotional, people are tapping into their sense of this is right and this is wrong, and that is what we're going to cash in on, the social capital of the moral aspect of this work DEI. The challenge is if you are thinking about this as a moral imperative that has a life cycle that is going to end at some point, then at some point you decide, oh, this is no longer beneficial to me because the social capital is either reducing or it has come up against too much backlash, which is what we're seeing today. However, for the organizations that started seeing it as a business imperative, that does have a moral aspect, but it is first and foremost a business imperative. What they started seeing is the value, not just from a consumer point of view, but from an internal structural building point of view. Right now we have a new work population whose millennials, Millennials and Gen Z's on record continuously in research talked about the need to have organizations that they are working with and for be value driven. So that means, A, now you're losing out on the best talent that is coming. B, when you are not using an equity lens, what you are essentially doing is cutting out a huge segment of the population that you could be.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:09:12]:
You could be designing for. A great example is with disabled people. If you are not thinking about equity as a business imperative, you have so many gaps in your design process for whether you're designing a service or a product. And that's Even when it's B2B that you are essentially cutting out huge segments of the market who could be tapping into your product or service. This is not good business. So again, I'd say our original sin is thinking about this as a moral question rather than a good business question.

Brandi Starr [00:09:44]:
I think you really hit on a Key point there, because I think all of, like, there are so many businesses that do see this as a moral, a moral problem and in the past have really jumped in on it as a PR move to get that social capital, as you mentioned. And more recently, companies are backing off of DEI out loud, so, so to speak. But this is something that has happened, you know, quietly in other ways where, and we've seen this especially with Pride month and you know, the LGBTQ community where they've kind of come out and said, like, please stop with the rainbow logos in June, because so many of these companies who don't really support that community want that social capital during that month. And so they'll make an effort, they'll put up the rainbow logo, they'll, you know, do some performative social within their office, get the pictures for social media, and then very quietly go back to being a biased organization behind closed doors. And this is where, this is why I wanted to have this conversation most, because moral issues can be debated. Like when we look at what each of our morals are, how we were raised, all those sorts of things, that is a conversation where we can very easily debate what's right, what's wrong. You know, you get into the finger pointing and things like that. And so from my perspective, I really feel like we have to do exactly what you said.

Brandi Starr [00:11:31]:
Let's set our morals aside. Like, we're not even going to have that conversation around what I believe, what you believe, and let's just talk about it from a business lens. And if we are all in business to make money because that's why they all exist. Like we all, we do our jobs because we're passionate and all those things, but at the end of the day, we're trying to pay our bills and live a life that we're happy with. Companies are trying to pay their shareholders and, you know, live a life they're happy with. And you know, there's, there's greed and there's all the things. But if we level the playing field just with this as a business imperative, it becomes one of those things that it seems like a no brainer in that it's very clear that these things impact business. So we've got to lean into it.

Brandi Starr [00:12:23]:
And so Anna, I'd love to hear your reaction to this myth and this focus around social capital versus the business component.

Anna Radulovski [00:12:34]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think when we talk about business component and companies who weren't treating it less than PR campaign as, you know, it's just part of HR initiative or let's just Celebrate International Women's Day or Pride Month and whatever. Not the social media post. And they actually were thinking how can we make it also as part of the business strategy, how can we leverage, how can we hire diverse talent but also train retain it? How can we get more women into leadership roles? Because that is very important for us to innovate. That is very important for us for the employee engagement. For example, cutting off GI programs can lead to a higher turnover of employees, meaning that cost saving from reduced turnover and better talent acquisition among ROI of di if you manage to of course do it correctly. And as you mentioned Sharon that about Jin Gen z they in 2025, according to World Economic Forum they will account. They already account one third of the global population and they are not ready to make the same career mistakes their parents did who were struggling, you know, with work and family.

Anna Radulovski [00:13:50]:
They want better pay, they want better, you know, work life integration. And they actually the first generation that grew up entirely in the Internet age. And they are more likely to be driven socially aw empathetic, collaborative. And for them, you know, all the things matter. And if today you say you support I know women in technology or we support LGBTQ community, but tomorrow says oh, we don't today and we just cut off, they're confused and they're like, hey, if tomorrow this company will reach out to me and say, hey, come work for me, you know, I won't be having this level of trust. And I've been seeing, you know, on LinkedIn, one I think one software engineer, she said, okay, they just laid off hundreds of thousands of people and they're reaching out to me, asking me to come work for them, which is worse, you know, come work for us. Be three days in the office and two days remote. And speaking of also this lack of flexibility and this policy after Covid to start pushing to, you know, be obligatory in the office.

Anna Radulovski [00:14:58]:
So this return to office policies, they also limit, you know, the talent pool by prioritizing candidates who live near the office location. So to say, what happened to hiring the best person for, for a role from everywhere? You know this. There was this post that went viral like thousands of comments and, and thousands hundreds of reposts about Spotify. Who says that our employees are not children and we remain our work from anywhere policy. And I love that because if you don't have trust, you know, for your, for your, for your employees, why, why hire them? You know, do you believe that they will do a better job coming to the office? Did they tell you that? Or do you believe that that will increase their productivity.

Brandi Starr [00:15:45]:
Yeah. And one thing I think that you hit on here, you know, without going too deep in the return to office policies, because I do think that that's a whole different conversation we could have. But just thinking about it from a DEI perspective, I think there is this misconception that DEI is strictly race, gender and sexual preference. Like when we hear people talk about DEI, oh, he's a DEI hire, well, he's got some melanin in his skin and that's why they're saying that, or oh, she's a DEI hire because she's the only woman in this role. But DEI is so much bigger. And when you talk about return to office policies and things like that, of attracting talent pool, there are a number of populations like those that are handicap, those that have some sort of mental health challenges, things like that, where we are alienating those populations by removing these accommodations and policies. There was, you know, I had a conversation with someone who felt like, and you know, there was a lot of negative from the pandemic and you know, a lot of people were negatively impacted. But for him, he said that it was the best thing that happened for his career because he has a mild and I can't remember the exact disorder, but a mental health disorder that made social interactions extremely difficult for him.

Brandi Starr [00:17:25]:
And so there were times where he felt like he was underperforming at work and was then let go because of these social challenges, not understanding social cues, the, you know, distractions from people being around. So being able to work from home and have that be the norm removed that for him. And he started to excel in his career. And by all other standards he would be considered the majority. He was a 30 something year old white man who was from, you know, the Midwest. So in all other ways he's the majority and not, you know, would not be looked at as a DEI hire. But because of his own personal challenges, things had been a struggle until Covid. And so I think you both hit on some really key points around hiring number one and retaining talent, but then also who millennials and Gen Z are choosing to do business with.

Brandi Starr [00:18:28]:
And you know, they are now at the age where they are in decision maker roles, they don't want to do business with those performative companies. And I'll pause and let you all react.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:18:41]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe I should, I should think a little bit before saying this out loud, but I immediately just want to be like, I mean we're technically all DEI hire, so all of us across the world, because you're either on one end of the spectrum, like as. As human beings. Human beings are complex. We contain multitudes. There is something under the sun that makes it just a little bit tougher to. Or something external that makes it a little tougher to move throughout the world. Even just simple things like disability.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:19:12]:
A lot of people don't really realize this, but you are going to be disabled at some point in your life, whether it is temporarily or permanently. Technically speaking, under the definition of disability, a broken arm is a disability, just a temporary one, which means we all need to think about the world, not in the sense of what is this average person that we are creating. And this average person is not neutral. And when we are creating an average person that doesn't exist and building the world, building our businesses around it, it means that we have decided this is the only person who can buy our product, who can use our services, who can work for us. If you are limiting yourself, there's a difference between being clear and strategic about your audience and limiting yourself. And if you are limiting yourself, it's not just saying, well, I guess no black women are going to want to work for you, or no XYZ is going to work for you. No, everyone under the sun has a way in which they navigate the. That is going to be troublesome.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:20:16]:
And if you are buying into that, you are, like I said, just losing a huge proportion of the market just to kind of stay nice and cozy in your space. And it's not good business. But we have a theory that we work through at QuakeLab called Equity as a technical skill. And it's that trying to shift away from that moral imperative into a business one. Because what we're essentially trying to ask, and it gets people a little bit uncomfortable sometimes, is if you are incapable of using an equity lens in the work that you do, the technical work that you do, can you really say you're good at your job? Can you honestly say that you are excellent at your job? Because I think about, I often use the example of, say, crash test dummies. Everyone knows the example of crash test dummies about how up until I think the late 2000s, most crash test dummies were built under the idea that the. A driver was basically going to be, I think it's like a six something or five, seven men, certain build, yada, yada yada. And that meant that fatalities and car crashes for anyone who was outside of that bubble ranged anywhere between 40% and 70%.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:21:29]:
So if I am someone who is building a vehicle, knowing that that is just a small proportion of the people who will be driving, but they are dying at or getting, you know, incredibly injured at huge rates. Can I really say I'm good at my job? This is what it means to move away from a moral imperative to a business question. Because if you are incapable of using a lens of there's more than this 1 average person in the world, then you are not doing your job well. Whether you are in finance, whether you are building bricks, whether you are coding, you are not good at your job.

Brandi Starr [00:22:08]:
Yeah. And I think the most recent example of that that I've seen because I think Crash Test Dummies is an important one. Like I'm a five, two woman and so you even think about where I sit in the seat and where if I'm in an accident where the steering wheel hits me versus your standard crash test dummy, those injuries are going to be completely different. And another one related to vehicles that I've seen recently is with the self driving cars. And I don't even know if the pilot's still running, but they were running a pilot in Vegas where they had the self driving Ubers and I got in one and you know, was watching the screen and there were multiple times that there was someone in the vicinity of the vehicle and they were not reflected on the screen. And generally it was in my assumption because, you know, not in that industry is whatever they're testing on didn't recognize that size, that complexion, that whatever. And it's like if you're that engineer and you're literally putting everyone's, you know, life in your hands because it's not just those that choose those type of vehicles. You are being short sighted and literally can kill people and you're not good at your job.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:23:32]:
You're not good at your job.

Brandi Starr [00:23:34]:
I think that's a great, you know, a great perspective that should make us all a little uncomfortable and it should make us all think about how do we think about what we do differently.

Anna Radulovski [00:23:49]:
Yeah, I would, I would add that it is critical to have more women on engineering teams and in leadership roles so they can say, hey, you are testing only on one model. Why don't you, why don't we do this and this and that. But if you, if your team is, you know, everyone feel the same, everyone agrees you hire the same type of people, then there is no diversity of thought, no one to question. But even when people are there, you know, diverse background, so to say, are they feel included, do they feel safe to speak up, to share? Not like you Feel like, hey, maybe tomorrow I will get, you know, fired. Because I just spoke and I, Whatever Rose the question, it got annoyed by. I, I annoyed someone, you know, so I think that that's important to attract diverse talent, but also retain them and to have. It's. It's easier, you know, to move and companies want to move fast, you know, and it's easier just to hire people who just feel like them, went to the same school, look like them, remind them of their, you know, younger self, so to say, or maybe a friend, a colleague.

Anna Radulovski [00:24:58]:
So. And I think that that pushes companies just to make decisions on hiring faster. And of course, we do need tests. There are lots of things, you know, in tech space, especially when we talk also about AI and the bias in AI and having more women, of course, taking the lead and into developing different algorithms and tools, systems, programs to reduce that bias.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:25:25]:
Yeah, I, I would say, if I, if I may, I, I definitely agree with that, with that understanding of diversity. It's all very true. In. We, we really as a company kind of tried to take a different direction with diversity, which is specifically focused on a few, A few key points. One, diversity is inevitable. Not just in human beings, but just in. On Earth. By just biologically, scientifically, diversity is inevitable.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:25:57]:
And when we look at it from human population across North America, we have seen some incredible increases in immigration, we've seen vast changes in just birth rates and death rates, all of these different factors that mean that this continent is just becoming diverse. Whether or not we want it, whether or not we're actively trying to make it happen or make it not happen, we are becoming more diverse. And so when you are talking about hiring to ensure that you are, you are reflective of a population, again, trying to shift away from this idea that, you know, be a good person and hire more XYZ again. And, you know, as you rightfully pointed out, it's just, it's good for your end product. But at the end of the day, if you are, if you are hiring your country, your community is more diverse, but you are closing yourself off, either by choice or through the systems that you are working, you are working with, that are cutting off segments of the population at some point or the other, you are no longer hiring the best talent because you are closing off larger and larger and larger segments of the population. And this is again, not just race, not just gender, but across the board, you are slowly limiting the pool of talent that you are tapping into. And the smaller pool of talent gets, the more likely that you are getting the most Excellent talent. So again, this is not a question of like do the right thing because it's good for the world because it's all of that is correct.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:27:35]:
But also just from a numbers perspective, you are doing yourself a disservice. You are doing your end product a disservice, you are doing your internal systems a disservice. And you are not future proofing yourself. You will have as a business, you will have an expiry date. And unfortunately for you, that expiry date is very, very soon.

Brandi Starr [00:27:56]:
And so I'd love hearing your point. You said point number one was diversity is inevitable. I definitely want to hear I got all in. I want to hear your point number two and three.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:28:06]:
Well, now I don't know if there is, I'm going to say two or three, but I'd say just within that kind of same aspect of thinking, like you have a more diverse population and also the way that population is educating themselves, the way that population is experienced, the way that population looks at the world is changing. Right? And so for instance, I think in the last few years I have to double check, but globally, women are starting to become some of the most, most educated and most highly credentialed population globally, not just in North America. So again, aside from the fact that, you know, lived experience might get us to see things differently, that just means you are like, you're basically think about it this way. If you are deciding, I no longer want to investigate my hiring systems to see if they are, they are cutting off different segments of the population. A different way to say that is personally I like getting the bare minimum. Personally, I like my product and my service to be as, as the kids say, mid as possible. I like to be at the middle or the bottom of the market. I like to be not innovative at all.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:29:16]:
That, that seems, you know, a little too much for me. And that's okay if that's who you want to be. If anything I just said right now sounds like, yeah, that sounds like something I'd like. Then beat all ten toes down on it. That's who you are going to be. And like congratulations for that. But you can't also want both things, right? Because the population is changing and because the way that population is changing is shifting. So many different social dynamics, so many professional dynamics and so many educational dynamics.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:29:44]:
It just. You are setting yourself up for failure.

Brandi Starr [00:29:49]:
I was gonna say, it's so funny you use the phrase mid. I'm like, that would be my buzzword. Banishment would be be all of the brain Rot words from Gen Alpha all thrown into one because I swear I hear skibidy and Sigma.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:30:05]:
Oh my gosh.

Brandi Starr [00:30:05]:
Thousand.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:30:06]:
No, I'm, I'm future proofing this podcast by talking to the youth.

Anna Radulovski [00:30:10]:
Okay, you're welcome to stay relevant, competitive, innovative.

Brandi Starr [00:30:16]:
I, I definitely have got a 10 year old so I definitely stay relevant there. But Anna, I have a question for you because I know you work a lot in tech and you know creating inclusive communities in tech and I'd love to hear how you've seen DEI initiatives contribute to stronger customer customer loyalty and competitiveness in the market.

Anna Radulovski [00:30:46]:
Yeah. Let's start with some facts that companies with more than 30% of women in leadership perform or likely to perform also better financially according to McKinsey. And you know that fact is also reflected with another study that did research by Boston Consulting Group. They discovered that companies with more diverse management team generate 9% higher revenue from innovation. And now why these facts matter? They matter immensely for tech field because they're particularly relevant for tech companies. Also for startups with attack or tech enables and generally industries where innovation drives growth and it's, you know, it's also a crucial element to building successful revenue generating businesses. Now you asked about market share, market general reach. We know that inclusive organizations are better positions to understand and serve diverse customer bases and it's also you know about expanding the market reach and boosting competitiveness.

Anna Radulovski [00:31:54]:
That's what we also talked about earlier. So by reflecting the diversity of the markets within the teams, companies can tailor products and services to meet varied customer needs effectively. Not just built for this elusive one Persona and stick there because tomorrow you also the people that you're building for and your customer base is evolving and growing and they see your competitors, how are they doing and they compare, they think they have a choice. We are no longer in this bubble where we don't have a choice and we just go to a supermarket or we just go to a certain shop, we you know, have accent with it one click away. Everyone is competing for your attention. We read news, we see what is happening and we make conscious choices. We care, we care much more deeply than as I mentioned, our parents cared because we have access to this information and we see also this big statement that companies make. So when they scale down on whatever you know, DI or ESG efforts that you know, they are looking into developing, we lose trust as customers.

Brandi Starr [00:33:08]:
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree there. Sharon, were you going to add something a little bit?

Sharon Nyangweso [00:33:14]:
Yeah, I was going to talk about something called the curb cut effect. Not sure if either of you are familiar with that term? It's something that I reference constantly because I think it's such a fascinating real world example, the curb effect. So a curb cut is essentially, I was going to say, has anyone ever walked on a sidewalk? I'm going to assume most of us have walked on the sidewalk, on the street. But there are some sidewalks where once you get to the road, the curb, instead of just sort of ending in this kind of cliff, it sort of curves into the road. So it's sort of smooth curve into the road. These curb cuts were initially created as part of some policy implications during the time when disability rights, civil rights activism was really booming. And so these curb cuts were meant specifically for people who are using mobility devices like wheelchair to be able to seamlessly transition from curb to road, back to curb. Right.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:34:13]:
And the idea was that this is for this segment of the population. Globally, Disabled people are around 1 ish percent of the population. And since. And that's been increasing quite rapidly and since COVID even faster. The really interesting thing that happened though is once these curb cuts were created, it wasn't just people using mobility devices who benefited. It was an incredible influx of people who are now more smoothly using these areas. And you started seeing an increase in pedestrian movement. It was people who were pushing strollers, people who were pushing kind of grocery cards, people who, who, you know, need to walk a little bit slower, older people, like just an increase in people, people with kids who are constantly tripping on the curb when they were crossing the street.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:34:58]:
And so this curb cut phenomenon is essentially this idea that if you are designing for the population who is most kind of marginalized or who has the greatest needs, you are inadvertently going to capture the largest amount of people, because even if they don't have an explicit need, this will still be valuable. Or at the very minimum, it won't impede their ability to use that space or to use whatever you have created. And so when we are talking about the value, as you know, you just so beautifully went through some of this data. There is real world examples from decades and decades past to this moment that shows us that the ability to think about and design the world, design a business, design services and products with this view of the world as what is our curb cut means that you are going to, with the greatest ease, going to perform better than anyone else. That's those, those, those metrics around, around innovation, those metrics around, you know, revenue growth. That's where those come from. And sometimes it's easy to see the numbers and not understand where that comes from.

Brandi Starr [00:36:17]:
Yeah, that is such. And it's funny, I. So my mom is in a wheelchair, she's an amputee. And I have experienced the difference in the curves that you've described where they are just kind of smooth, it's almost like a little slope versus And I never recognized that that was an intentional thing. However, I have definitely experienced the difference because you know, in that scenario where there is the curb, I can very easily roll her off, roll her on without having to go find the ramp. When it is that hard cut, it's like she can go down, but then on the other side, either I gotta, you know, hurt my back or we have to go find where that alternate route. And quite often, like I've had situations where I have been pushing her along the road, you know, coming into oncoming traffic because the ramp was not where we came down. And it is a, a great perspective in that by doing things that help to accommodate some means, you are actually benefiting more.

Brandi Starr [00:37:34]:
And I think that's. Yeah, I think that's one. You know, because as a mom, I've definitely had the stroller situation and you know, really thinking about that, like, I think that is a good perspective for those people who don't just naturally see the value. And it's, I think that's the population that I, I try to speak to most because there are some people, you know, I'd say the majority of people have a good heart, care about people want to do the right thing. And so they generally do. But there is a. And I don't want to make it sound like they're wrong. I don't want to get into that debate.

Brandi Starr [00:38:12]:
But there are people who are less empathetic, less concerned with the greater good. And what I aim to get through to those people is even if you don't care, it impacts your money. And it's like, it's like absolutely, you know, it's like protect the bag. Like it just, you know, never mind the heart. Yeah.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:38:37]:
And you are benefiting, you, whoever you are, Even if you think you are outside of that bubble of D because DEI has become this dog whistle term. But even if you think you are not included in that bucket, your everyday benefiting from, if you've ever had a weekend, you're benefiting from movement building. If you, you know, just so many things that you are benefiting and you have no idea. And so by saying we do not need this thing, it's inevitably going to blow back on yourself.

Anna Radulovski [00:39:07]:
Yeah, I think that the Biggest misconception that different DI policies, the only people benefit certain groups of people, but in fact, inclusive policies benefit in everyone.

Brandi Starr [00:39:20]:
Yeah. And so my last question really, you know, speaks to the heart of those people who still don't get it. And so for those leaders who still, you know, view DEI as a discretionary expense, like, what practical insight beyond. And I think you guys have already shared, you know, a lot, but can you share to help to illustrate the strategic business value and the direct tie to revenue? Like I. This is sort of my last call of appeal, so to speak, of how people can really understand how these initiatives impact the bottom line and what ends up in their pocket.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:40:07]:
Do you want to go first? The main question.

Anna Radulovski [00:40:09]:
Go ahead.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:40:10]:
Okay, so I think I'll maybe I'll segment this into two groups. If you are the person who is saying that this is not a thing that you need, it is discretionary, it is to have, not a. Not a must have because you are morally opposed because your values do not align with everything that we have said, then I'm going to get you to like, fast forward or pause or put off the. Because I actually have nothing for like, that is. I always joke that I'm really, really good at my job, but I can't come up against, you know, what you saw on TV 30 years ago, what your dad said about a neighbor, you know, know, I can't come up against that. Your. Your socialization is beyond my scope of ability. That being said, I like to focus on those people who are hesitant, but they're hesitant.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:41:02]:
And I like to be curious with a line of questioning about the why. And very often it comes down to things like I don't have the money to spend on xyz. And there, I think is a lot of value in kind of my, my golden code for how we do this work and why. As you mentioned, I have a really strong design thinking, method and framework that I lean on, which is start with. Start with. Clearly articulating your challenges. What are the challenges that you are looking at? It's really, really difficult to make a case for why you should be spending your resources, whether it's time, money, labor, whatever, on this work, if you have any. Clearly articulate your challenge.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:41:43]:
Is your challenge that you're looking around your, your business and everyone looks like you. And where there's smoke, there's fire. Is it that you're finding your product isn't having the same oomph as your competitors? Is it that you're having a really difficult time selling a service like what is the challenge? Start there and then start getting into the deep end of who is that challenge for? Who is it most loud for? Who is that segment of the product population? And then how do you solve for it? This is how you switch from a moral imperative to a business question. If you look at any business challenge you're having, at some point you are going to see where it aligns with equity. And this is where we're saying, think of it as a technical skill. And if you are thinking about the resources behind there are ways to be creative. There's this idea that the only people who can practice this work are those who have certain identities. I often get it, you know, like, I want to do this, but I'm not a black woman.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:42:38]:
I'll never know your experiences. That's fine. But I'm good at my job. Not because I'm a black woman, but I'm good at my job because I'm good at my job. So there is a way for which you can approach this with a rigor and a strategic frame that maybe doesn't require you to invest a ton of capital to begin with. You can do it. You can do it yourself. Awesome.

Brandi Starr [00:43:01]:
Anna, anything you want to add to that one?

Anna Radulovski [00:43:03]:
Yeah, I, I agree with that. Because it's about understand sometimes I think it's about just like some companies, like, let's do something for di this mysterious, you know, world without understanding why you are doing and where you had it, how you're going to measure and what are you going to achieve, but also being realistic that you cannot do a quick fix. I think that that many, you know, companies, organizations were looking for a quick fix, like, let's do this and we'll fix, you know, everything. Or let's get, you know, let's hire chief diversity officer and, you know, she or he will. They will fix everything. And it doesn't work like that. I like to think, you know, about. You need to be thinking that you're investing time, money, resources, you're investing.

Anna Radulovski [00:43:46]:
It's going to take time because it's not something that can happen, you know, real quick. And you need to be patient and you need to know why you're doing and what impact it's going to have and how is it contributing towards your challenges, as you mentioned, Sharon.

Brandi Starr [00:44:01]:
All right, so we've talked about the problem. Now it's time to fix it. So welcome to the lightning round. And so I'm gonna put you guys on the spot. There are four questions. So, Anna, I'll give you one and three, Sharon, I'll give you two. And for. And it is fast answers only.

Brandi Starr [00:44:21]:
We want to make sure we leave our listeners with some actions that they can take right now to start having impact. So we know it's not a quick fix, but we at least want to get everybody started moving in the right direction. Are y'all ready?

Sharon Nyangweso [00:44:37]:
Go for it.

Brandi Starr [00:44:38]:
All right, so question one. Anna, finish this sentence. If your company has a DEI problem, the first thing you should do is.

Anna Radulovski [00:44:50]:
Is to see the stats, to bring some data, understand where exactly this problem is, because this problem can be very specific, and you need to get. Take it from that.

Brandi Starr [00:45:04]:
All right, Sharon, number two, what's one red flag that signals a company has a DEI problem but might not realize it yet?

Sharon Nyangweso [00:45:15]:
All their money is put in training.

Brandi Starr [00:45:18]:
Oh, that's a good one. Anna, what's the most common mistake people make when trying to fix this.

Anna Radulovski [00:45:30]:
When trying to.

Brandi Starr [00:45:32]:
Trying to fix their DEI challenges?

Anna Radulovski [00:45:37]:
Yeah, one of the things, for example, that they would do is to get a woman of color to speak on International Women's Day and think that they're fixing the problem basically. Or imagine just because she's, you know, a black woman or a woman of color, an immigrant woman, working mother, doesn't matter. And she's supposed to fix it, even know how to address it, know what to do just because she represents this group of people.

Brandi Starr [00:46:03]:
That is so accurate. And last one, Sharon, what's the fastest action someone can take today to make progress?

Sharon Nyangweso [00:46:14]:
Ooh, audit. Audit your organization, see where the challenges are, and then go from there.

Brandi Starr [00:46:21]:
Awesome. I was gonna say, well, every good session ends with a plan for progress. So I appreciate that because, of course, just talking about it won't fix it. And so, Anna and Sharon, I so appreciate you. And I want to understand where can our audience find you if they want to continue the conversation? So, Sharon, how can people connect with you?

Sharon Nyangweso [00:46:45]:
Well, I have a love hate relationship with LinkedIn. Some days I'm there a lot. Some days I'm like a ghost. So please do follow me on LinkedIn. Sharing ingueso, but also to connect with myself or my team. If you go on our website quakeglab. We can chat.

Brandi Starr [00:47:01]:
Awesome. And Anna, what about you? How can people connect?

Anna Radulovski [00:47:05]:
I'm super active on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. At moments I find it's really difficult, you know, to consistently write, then share, you know, bring value to my community. But I love LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn. And yeah, and I'm writing, actually wrote a book, Chief and tech book. It's going to be released this May. It's about how women are breaking barriers and making an impact.

Brandi Starr [00:47:36]:
Awesome. Very exciting. Congratulations. Well, we will make sure to link to both your LinkedIns and your website. So wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, check the show notes to stay connected with Anna and Sharon. Well, ladies, thank you so much for joining me. I have really enjoyed the discussion. I.

Brandi Starr [00:47:59]:
I can't believe we are at the end.

Sharon Nyangweso [00:48:03]:
So happy to be here. It was a good chat. You made my brain hurt a little bit, but in the best way.

Brandi Starr [00:48:08]:
I love it. I love it. Well, I hope everyone has enjoyed my conversation with Anna and Sharon. I can't believe we're at the end. Until next time.