Heinz on Growth: Shaping Success in Brands and Business

Intro VO  00:05

Welcome to revenue rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr.

Brandi Starr  00:34

Hello, hello hello and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr and we have a truly amazing episode for you today, I am joined by Matt Heinz. Matt is the founder and president of Heinz marketing and has more than 15 years of marketing, business development and sales experience from a variety of organizations, vertical industries and company sizes. His career has focused on delivering measurable results for his employers and clients in the way of greater sales, revenue growth, product success and customer loyalty. And Matt is no stranger to revenue rehab, he joined me way back when for Episode 14, where we talked about the amazing community that he runs cmo Coffee Talk, Matt, welcome back to revenue rehab, your session begins now.

Matt Heinz  01:29

Awesome. Thank you so much. I am legit deeply honored to be here for episode 100. And congratulations on episode 100 as well. I mean, just it's it's a not a lot of podcasts get to this point, I think because some people just get bored with it or give up on it. But you've kept it fresh and interesting and highly relevant throughout. So congrats on all the success.

Brandi Starr  01:51

Thank you. Yeah, I am excited. I know when we started. They told us that a lot of podcasts don't make it to Episode 11 Yeah, and so you know, when we hit 12 I was like, Okay, do but yeah, Episode 100 It's crazy. It kind of snuck up on me because it really feels like you know, I just interviewed MK for Episode One like yesterday, but so much has changed. But before we dive into our topic, you know, I like to break the ice with a little Woosah moment called buzzword banishment. So what buzzword would you like to get rid of forever?

Matt Heinz  02:35

i There's a category of buzzwords I describe as what I'm selling led growth, right. And there's all these different like, and it's like everyone is we all live in glass houses, everyone's trying to do their best. But it just seems like everyone's trying to say, well, you can lead use this to the growth or you can use this to lead growth or this tactic or this channel. And way too often, it's the company selling you a solution for that, that is coming up with that. And so I think it's life is life and business and b2b is never that simple. So it's gotten a little out of control. And a lot of those strategies work, but you got to put them in context and sort of think about the body of work that needs to happen to create predictable results and b2b. So that's my buzzword is the what I'm selling lead growth of the day.

Brandi Starr  03:20

I am all in I know I joked with someone I said when taco lead growth, but call becomes a thing like call me because I am all in on that strategy. I don't know how it will help with revenue. But either way, I'd love to have fun trying.

Matt Heinz  03:35

So I was having dinner with a bunch of CMOS couple weeks ago. And we got on this topic and someone said, As soon as someone says, I've created revenue, lead growth, or sales lead growth, I'm like, Okay, now what that that actually I can get behind because that does drive growth. But at this point, we're so far into our inside baseball weeds. I don't know what we're doing.

Brandi Starr  03:58

Well, I love it. So jumping into our topic, as you mentioned, this is the 100th episode of revenue rehab. And so my team and I were brainstorming around what did we want to do for episode 100? Because it's such a big deal. And they challenged me to not just come up with a great business problem to solve for this episode, but to pick a guest that I admired, like someone who you know, I like we aspire to be successful in this podcast. So you know, kind of going with that inspiration and you know, when they said that you were the first person that jumped into my mind because I have been like a backseat fan girl for you know, probably a decade now. I think when I first met you, I was still at my last company. And I've been here for nine years. So it really has been like a decade. And you know, I really admire what you've done not only through Heinz marketing, but also just the really genuine reputation that you've built for yourself. And so, you know, I'm excited to talk to you about, you know, Heinz on growth. So Heinz lead growth, we're gonna throw that one in there. Oh, and just, you know, to hear some of your lessons, you know, from your business, because you are a brand, and you also spend your life helping to build and grow other brands. And so, you know, there's lots of lessons things that I've seen you do that I've sent to my team? And I'm like, oh, take a look at this. You know, and so like, you're an inspiration to them, as well. So they were like, oh, yeah, I know who that is. Yeah, so really excited to dig in here. Awesome.

Matt Heinz  05:54

Where do you want to start? From?

Brandi Starr  05:56

Well, I'd like to start with setting an intention, like I, you know, it always gives focus and purpose. And so in sharing your story, and knowing that the audience is primarily, you know, CMOs VPS, of marketing, what I like them to take away from hearing about your experience and success.

Matt Heinz  06:21

Well, there's so many things come to mind, I think first is, you know, just, you know, we all live in glass houses. And I think we're always learning. And I think if you know, I fundamentally believe if you don't look back at sort of your earlier stages of your career in life, and if you don't cringe a little bit, you're probably not improving, and probably not sort of learning enough and becoming a better, not just better at what you do, but a better human, a better contributor to society and the people around you. I think, you know, as I've gotten older, I definitely lean more into just thinking about what, what's the real impact I want to have on the people that matter around me. You know, I think someone told me once that success in a variety different ways you define that is a platform for doing things that matter. And I wasn't an entrepreneur. So I mean, I've been in this entrepreneur group for about 10 years. And a couple years ago, we went through this exercise around sort of your living, discovering your living legacy, and defining what it means for you not to sort of wait until the end and see what people say about you. But to say like, what do you want your legacy to be? What impact do you want to have? Whether it's the world or your family? Or however you define that? And how do you start living that now? How do you start inspiring that? Or how do you start prioritizing things in your life now. And that was a big deal for me thinking about where I want to spend my time where I want my business to go, what I want our business to enable, you know, we around that same time, we were sort of rethinking sort of who we wanted to be as a business. And the stated purpose we have as our business still today is to positively impact careers and lives by enabling work that matters. And that whole statement to me is important. And I can go deep into sort of what I mean by work that matters. But the first part is, like positively impact careers and lives, for our employees, for our clients, for any b2b marketer that we can influence. And then lastly, the communities in need around us. Those are four groups that we think about a lot. And, you know, in good times and bad, that is a purpose that helps us decide what we want to do, it helps us prioritize people over profits, in some cases, when times get tough. You know, I'm lucky that I don't have investors, I'm not a public company, I'm us. I'm the sole owner. So we can do things that like, you know, a investor back company, or a public company might not do, because I think it serves our purpose. And, you know, look, that's not the right answer for everybody. But I, I'm very, very grateful that even as a small, small company, we can we can have an impact on a few people by being true to that purpose.

Brandi Starr  09:01

Yeah, and that's, you know, that's definitely one of the things I admire about you. And it is like the same for me, I can remember early in my career, you know, some conference or something where it was like a motivational speaker, and they did this visualization exercise where they had, you know, they went to a morbid and they had you visualize your funeral. And, you know, not so much like, what does it look like? Or what are you wearing, but more so, like, what are people getting up and talking about? What do you want them to be talking about you? And are you living your life now, in a way that leads to that, and that, you know, and ironically, shortly thereafter, I ended up at the funeral for, you know, my husband at the time his grandmother, and like the mayor came and like she was from this really small town. In Georgia, yeah, but everybody, I mean, there were people that came through and said, you know, her feeding them was the only meal that they were getting at the time they were growing up. Several guys talked about how if it weren't for her, you know, like keeping them off the streets, they'd probably be in jail or dead, like, all these things. And, you know, I was like, not that I wanted that same impact. But that level of impact on people's lives was really what I wanted for myself. And I have held on to that same notion, throughout my entire career. And there have been times like, even now, you know, Tegrity is a small company, when I came here, nine years ago, I had an opportunity that was much more lucrative financially. But I chose this because very similarly, it is, you know, people and purpose over profits, it very much looks to have an impact in the community be a great place to work. And those sorts of things are the things that allow you to leave a legacy and make a little money, even though it's not, you know, it may not be the same as you know, fortune 100 Kinda company money.

Matt Heinz  11:16

Well, it's all trade off, you know, I think, you know, pre pandemic, you know, in service to my family and business, I was doing a lot of speaking, I was doing a ton of travel, I think I did over 100,000 miles, just domestically in 2019. And I justified every second of it saying, like, I'm helping our business, I'm helping my family I'm providing for my family. And then I think that fall of that year, I was I was like, eight straight weeks I was traveling. And the pandemic was a really big control, delete. For me, it was really big reset on just the value that I've the satisfaction I felt being home, the value I felt, being present. And, you know, here, you know, four years later or whatever, I'm still traveling way less and, and to be honest, like, it means that I'm making less, it means that some of those opportunities that come from either a paid speaking gig somewhere or being at a conference and getting some bizdev out of that, I know that I'm missing some of that, but I'm here, like, literally when we finished recording this, you know, my son's wrestling meet is this afternoon is like it, he's me. He's a seventh grader. And he's in wrestling. And last week, I had a full day setup as last Thursday. And I wasn't traveling, I was here. But I had a full day of meetings. And my daughter had a little medical issue in the morning, and my sons had an away meet. And like last minute, they're like, We need people that can drive. So I had to cancel a couple prospect meetings, I had to cancel a podcast recording and just say I'm really sorry. But here's what's going on. Well, I got an interview that morning. And I grateful that I have a job that even gives me the opportunity to like make that decision. And by going and being a chaperone for my son's away me, I got to see what it turned out to be his first win. And his first pin as a middle school wrestler. And so like the meetings, I had to reschedule, like were a non issue like no one cares, right? The fact that I got that moment with NEC the fact that I was there and was able to prioritize that there's no amount of money in this stage in my life that can replace that. And so I think that trade off, I don't think earlier, Matt would have made I think like even pre pandemic, Matt would have said, Claire it you got to figure it out, I got to work, you know, I would have been afraid to I would have been afraid to reschedule something for work. Instead of prioritizing my child. I can put it in that way. Like that sounds dumb. Well, that's where my brain. And I could justify it by saying you got to figure it out. Because I have to take this meeting, because if this turns into business, they're gonna help us keep paying the bills, and will get to have the life that we have. But that's not like the life that we have isn't about the money. It's about being there. For her. It's about seeing that smile on my son's face without hard work over the last year and a half paid off. And he got his first win. So I'm going off on a tangent, but I think I just think like the older I get, the more mistakes I make, the more I think about what really matters. Not only the people around me that I can impact, but the things that matter to me, and that we'll have like no one's going to care about, you know, those two meetings last week. But being in for my son, that is a memory that he and I and we will have forever. Yeah, it's it's it's very important. Yeah.

Brandi Starr  14:36

And I think you know, you hit on a really key point not everyone you know, is a business owner has the desire but even in making choices in your career and what sorts of environments that you want to work in. Like there's a good lesson to be taken away from that. Because I can think of times in my career or people that I know now who were at companies To whom we're really would have been frowned upon to cancel meetings, especially prospect meetings, like heaven forbid you do something to, you know, hinder revenue to be there for family, and there's so many people that are faced with those dilemmas, you know, every day that it is, you know, you do get to a stage where you have to, you know, you are not have to, but you choose to choose differently, or

Matt Heinz  15:28

you get to, I think you get, I mean, I consider it a high privilege to be able to do that, to make those trade offs. And, you know, I think, is to say the same thing, it's not just me, as the owner and founder, it's like, if someone on the team has something that then emergency comes up, go take care of your people go do what you need to do. You know, we do Friday hours. So like half the team, we sort of rotate on Fridays, half the team takes off at noon, the other half the following noon. So like that, and we've got people kind of spread out geographically. Now we've got an employee in eastern Washington, who was doing some, you know, charity work with their mom on her Fridays, and they changed the schedule, so that she could no longer use those Fridays. And so we're like, that's, that's a slam dunk, we'll change where you're Friday's hours. So you can still go do that stuff, right? If your kid has a thing going on at school, if you need to, we will work around that, right. I mean, it's, I mean, what we do is important, but there aren't that many sales pipeline emergencies in the middle, right. So I think if if you prioritize your people, those are the moments right, like, on a sunny day, when it's really easy, like your values, your purpose is easy to follow. When things get hard, when that's when the decisions you make and your commitment to your purpose really stands out. I mean, I'm grateful that we've got people that have been working for us for, you know, my CEOs still here. 15 years later, we've got a business and marketing our operations analyst has been with us for 10 plus years. And I'm just very grateful that not only we've got people that we have earned the right to continue to work with, but they've leaned in with us just helped create, the impact we've been able to have on the world to our purpose as well.

Brandi Starr  17:07

And so that that leads me to my next topic, which really is around leadership. Because you know, when you get to a senior level, you know, at any facet of your career, like leadership becomes just as important of a responsibility as being good at the actual craft. And, you know, I know that you put a lot of thought into how you lead your team, the, you know, culture that you set, and those sorts of things. And so for someone who struggles in that area, because I know, you know, again, talking to a lot of leaders, they do feel that tug and pull of, I gotta get all the things done. But then I also have these people and so what advice do you give to other leaders in, you know, being able to focus on that and prioritize those efforts and thoughts? Because it does take mental space to even you know, really not just not just get in the Go, go? Go?

Matt Heinz  18:14

Yeah, it's a really great question. Well, first, I would just say that if you if you are feeling that struggle, if you're feeling that tension, you are already a great leader, because that means you are prioritizing, your brain is already prioritizing, supporting the people on your team. If you didn't feel that tension, it would mean you're like, just well, they are a cog, they are a means to an end. And we're focused on the result. And they just got to figure out how to get there. Right. And like, there are times when you just gotta like you gotta focus and get things done. But until robots sell the robots, which I don't know, might be around the corner someday, like, the people matter, the people or everything. So you have to find that balance. Now, does that mean like, you can just like, oh, yeah, I feel feel free to work whenever you want to work. Now we got things we got to do, we have responsibilities. But those responsibilities don't begin and end at work. And I think when you treat your people with respect, when you respect what they have going on in their lives, people that have shared values with you will lean in on that, like we have, we have a we have a a FIT test that we put in that we've used to evaluate new hires, and we sort of use to sort of make sure that we've got the right people on the on the team as well. And I call it GW c plus values. GW C stands for gets it wants, it can do it. So in any given role, I want someone that gets to their job, wants the job and can do the job, right. And then we have five core values. And we will evaluate employees and, you know, prospect or prospective employees on those five values. And the worst you can do is if I look at that value and say Do they adhere to this value, the worst that you can do is have to neutrals. So passing grade is two neutrals and three positives on our five values. Right? And so we spend a lot of time with prospective employees. We want to understand Can you do the work We really want to understand, are you someone that's going to fit in our culture? Are you someone that is going to enhance our culture, but match our values? What we do I mean, look, we've got like a pretty deep what I think is a pretty sophisticated methodology for what I do. But it's not rocket science. I got it, we have a whole onboarding training system, we've got templates, we can teach you how to do this, I cannot teach you to care about our values in the way that rest of our employees do. So the second answer and first answer your question is just like, if you feel that struggle, you're already on the right path. Second is if you commit to a purpose, and a set of values for the organization, and if you truly activate those in the business, if you hire for them, if you reward for them, if you look at people that are struggling and sort of do that test again and say, Where is there some opera? Or is there an opportunity for coaching? Can we identify one of these areas that maybe someone's got little lacks on or something's going on their life, that things are a little struggle? If they are a product? If they were a values fit before? They probably still are? And so where can we coach and make sure that you were bringing people with us? I think there's an opportunity, like when you have those values, and you activate them and make them part of your culture, it's not just you, as a leader, pulling everyone through, you have an entire organization that is aligned with and believes and protects that culture and those values.

Brandi Starr  21:19

Yeah, we made a similar shift about four years ago doesn't have a name for it. I feel like I need an acronym now. But it is very similar in, you know, testing for are you naturally, you know, do you work? Do you naturally fit into this? Is this the kind of thing that you know, you can do in your sleep? And how do you align to our core values. And since we've made that shift, I mean, it's harder to hire, because it you know, sometimes you find people with all the skills, but not the fit. But you find that out more upfront. And what we've seen is the longevity, just like you're saying, people who've been there, you know, forever, it's like when you really put people in roles that they are a natural fit for in a culture that really aligns to who they are, they don't want to go anywhere, and they will go hard for your organization, you know, especially during those tough times when you do need people to double down and you know, make things happen, because they've got that balance.

Matt Heinz  22:26

Well, I think if you've got people that have their values fits, and if you subscribe to sort of the people on the bus, kind of philosophy of like bringing on the right type of people as you grow. And as you have different needs. You can put people can take different seats, like we think of that internally as as tours of duty. Right, like, you may have a particular role. And this may be your job description, maybe like, Hey, listen, you know, over the course next three months, like we have some extra things we need to get done, we would love you to play a role this quarter on getting this, this or this done. And like it's not your permanent new job. But if you fit our if you match our values, and you're in your body and on purpose and what we're working towards, like fight taking on a new challenge, doing that in a place where there's empathy and respect and trust that you'll figure it out and can do it. And if you can't, you're going to ask questions, and we're going to work on it together. Right? I believe in individual accountability for roles, but I agree in group accountability, if those people are stuck, and things are falling behind we as a group, we as a team, support that person and help them get back on track. And it makes those tours of duty easier for people to accept and thrive in. And sometimes they stay with that, like I've had our head, our head of Biz Ops right now, we hired her as like a Marketo expert, and you know, just the evolution of her career, but frankly, her life as well. You know, she's now crushing it just running the back office for us. And, you know, she's been incredible. And it's been really, really gratifying, not only seeing her growth in that role, but also seeing and knowing how she's been able to lean in with her family, given that role, and the flexibility has given her as well. And that's, you know, positively impacting careers and lives, man, that's right at the core of our purpose.

Brandi Starr  24:12

I love it, love it. So I'm going to shift gears a little bit and talk a little more business business. So as a business owner, I know you have to balance, you know, growing your own brands and supporting your clients. And I think that time management and knowing where your particular efforts are needed most versus where you delegate things to your team, are things that people consistently struggle with. And so I'd love to hear how you balance, you know, essentially growing multiple brands at once and figuring out where you are needed most.

Matt Heinz  24:56

It's a good question, and I think the answer is continue to evolve. Have a little bit on that, depending on what stage we are at the business. I really don't mean, I don't really care about my personal brand, to be honest, like 15 and a half years ago, I started this business with a laptop and a bus pass. And I had zero budget. But you know, I have a journalism degree. And so that didn't you know, journalism doesn't just teach you to write teach you to tell stories. And I think that has been an really important asset and strength over time. So I started a blog started newsletter, and I just like, honestly, it's 15 and a half years later, it's still just like, how do I respond to what I see? Like how do I think about and sort of try to aggregate something semi intelligent, based on what I'm seeing and hearing in the industry. And I think about that as a couple of ways. One, if that's a distillation of what I'm seeing, and hearing, and that helps other people, if that helps our clients, if it helps clarify something for our team, and an engagement they have. If it helps someone in the industry, then that that follows our purpose. I think it also provides credibility in the market that like, hey, these guys, they're not just saying what they can sell, like they're walking the walk, they seem to, they seem to have intelligent things to say. And look at the fact the fact that, you know, I've been able to build a following based on some of that is great. And certainly, you know, I think that has helped us subsidize some of our growth expenses. Like we don't have a sales team, like it's, it's myself and our CFO that basically do the selling for our company. And as we grow, like, that'll probably change, you may need someone to come in and help us with that. But I'm super grateful that we've been able to build the businesses the size we're at today. And we have no bizdev team, we have no sales team. And certainly having a brand and certainly having followers, and certainly having people that want to hear what I have to say or, or read or write or whatever is like that is that's, that's fantastic. But it's always in service to the audience. I mean, I just, you know, I see a lot of sort of influencers and creators, they seem to be mostly talking about themselves and writing for an algorithm to give them more clicks. And look, I'm not, I'm not here to look, I'm not here to judge anybody. But I don't know that that's in service to anything but their own metrics, I guess. And I really, I realized that if I get more reached, and maybe if I have something interesting to say, maybe that influence was more people, and I can make a case of that ties to your purpose. But I don't, I don't need the most I don't I don't write and create content, to sort of get the most clicks or likes, I just want it to be something that someone might be able to say that helps me make sense of something. Or is you know, he's being part of the single Coffee Talk community. You know, we get into topics that kind of get cathartic sometimes and get deep. And if someone says, I feel seen, I'll never forget the session we did on imposter syndrome. And we had someone come in and studied it and written about it and talked about it. And someone called me afterward and said, I legit thought I was one of the only people in my network in my life that had impostor syndrome. And to hear that, like, amongst 300 CMOS on the call, like 94%, so they had impostor syndrome. And I think the other 6%, were probably multitasking didn't hear the question. Like, we all have it. And so like, just whether you learn something, or whether you feel seen, or whether you just helps you get through your day, or get through that board meeting. I know I'm riffing around a little bit here. But I think, again, I, I think the service of the content you create to your audience, right? however you define that audience, that is the end goal, if a side benefit of that, as you build a brand that benefits you in some way, great, but you will maintain and keep and grow that brand, by staying true to the audience that you started to serve in the first place.

Brandi Starr  28:41

Yeah, that's a really good point in just, you know, focusing on what it is that you're trying to do, and the rest just kind of happens, you know, and that, of course, that's oversimplifying it, but you know, at the end of the day, it is not focusing on that. It's being conscious of personal brand, but that's not necessarily focused on it. Yeah.

Matt Heinz  29:03

I will say, though, that I think, you know, we are entering a world when some of those personal brands are going to be more important, right, as AI has the ability to create content that is intelligent, that is insightful that is that, you know, sort of does some of that distillation. Until robots sell the robots, and again, we might get there someday, I think people still want to hear from other people. So you know, listening to what someone has to say, and, you know, appreciating not only the relevance that has but also the style of how they created I think that it that is a very human delivery mechanism. And I think that I think humans will continue to be attracted to other humans that can deliver that in a compelling way.

Brandi Starr  29:45

Okay, and I want to shift and really talk about growth because I know you know, helping organizations grow their revenue is the you know, at the core of what you're doing and from lists Saying to some of your conversations with Brett and reading things that you know, you post online. I see you've got, you know, good perspective and insight on what is working right now. And I think one of the biggest struggles, and you see this come up a lot in coffee talk is people are trying to figure out like, where do they need to focus their attention, because there's so many things that are the hot thing for the moment. And then they're, you know, kind of gone. And so what are you seeing that is really working for organizations in being able to accelerate pipeline, increased deal size, velocity, all of the things?

Matt Heinz  30:40

So I love this question, because I've been thinking a lot about this lately. You know, and so, you know, our focus as a business is to help companies build more predictable pipeline. And so it's things like, you know, who are you selling to? Who are the people? What are the buying committee look like? How are you activating those engagement across sales and marketing, like all important stuff, but you have to put that in context. And what I'm finding is that, despite many really great CMOS, like prioritizing those efforts, they still fight with the C suite and fight with the board about priorities, they fight about metrics they fight about who gets credit for what, like, why are we not wired? Why aren't we doing this initiative instead of this? Why aren't we getting pipeline immediately from these investments we make? So we have to pull back all the way back honestly, to corporate strategy. Right? And let's not dwell on this a lot. But like, where are you as a business? Like, are you early stage? Are you in Product Market Fit mode? Who who? Where are your funding sources? And what are they need? What are the shareholder or stakeholder objectives, you know, if you're early stage and doing product market fit, and maybe your growth at all costs, just to prove that you've got some things you can get the next round. If your private equity owned, like profitability, EBIT are really matters. So again, corporate strategy, combined with your market opportunity, like how mature is your your industry, what's the mindset of your customers what kind of competitive setting you have. So corporate strategy combined with market opportunity gives you a go to market strategy that can say, we're willing to spend everything possible to acquire companies or we want to be as profitable and tight as possible, or we need to be all about net new sales. Or we need to actually mix in some some retention strategies around that as well. Or you know, what, we need to focus everything, we have an immediate pipeline, versus we're going to start to invest in owned land, we're starting to invest in longer term brand, and recognition strategies that are going to subsidize our demand over time, how you prioritize those different efforts. And how you get aligned on that as an organization, the C suite, the CEO, the board, it goes back to that corporate strategy and those other ingredients to decide what goes into that. Because if we just sit here and say, like, oh, we should start a community, right? Or you know what, we should start a podcast? Or how come we're not advertising here? How come we're not winning the search wars, or whatever it is? Legit questions. But without context of why we're just going to fight over a variety of well meaning priorities. So I think it's the entire organization's responsibility to route what you're doing in those fundamentals, not revisit those like every week, that should be at best, like an annual revisit, right? But two, if you have that initial conversation, if you route, what you're doing in that, when you talk when you're doing trade offs, just like like is like if we've got different parties, because what is our purpose say about this? What is our long term objectives as a business, what we should prioritize? We'd be having the same conversation about our marketing and sales investments. And it's not again, it's not rocket science. And in some cases, you may be like, you know, what, there's fundamental questions we've not ever answered. You know, like, how mature is our market? If we think we need to just focus on that new, then maybe that does mean, we're not going to create a community, or we're not going to invest in 100 episodes of a podcast, because that's not an immediate pipeline builder, right? It takes a while to build that. I mean, the community of four years of cmo coffee talk, I can absolutely look back and see what kind of business is generated. But if you treat it like a pipeline, you're gonna ruin it from the beginning. Yeah. So anyway, I think it's really important to make sure that those corporate fundamentals are in place, understood and are agreed upon by all the leaders in your organization. That's the solid ground on which you build your go to market strategy and can stick with it and see real long term success.

Brandi Starr  34:26

Yeah, and I agree completely. I know I always cringe when people are like, Oh, well, what are your other clients doing? Like, maybe that'll work for us? And while there are of course, some lessons that can be learned, I agree. It's not just, you know, it's not like a recipe where it's like, oh, yeah, one cup of flour, two cups of sugar. Everybody's gonna, you know, get a great cake. It's, you know, it really is different. And you hit on something that I hear come up a lot, and that is struggles for people that are in mature markets. You know, a lot of times when you're trying to create a category, or you know, your one a few and you're leading, like, some of the efforts and where to focus your attention are a little more obvious. But when you're in a more mature market, you know, you've got everybody's kind of almost on the same playing field, like, what advice do you give there in being able to, you know, stay ahead have that predictable pipeline continue to grow, when you are in a mature space.

Matt Heinz  35:38

It's, it's, it's a variation on the theme that I think works in almost every stage of the business is just to be as close to your customers as you can. Because if you're looking at what the industry overall is doing, if you look at what your competitors are doing, and saying to the market, that is all built on evidence from the past, right, so the what your competitors are positioning themselves at the features they are creating, that's based on what they have perceived, rightly or wrongly, that your market needed, weeks, months, years ago, what your customers are saying today, in real time like that can help you predict the future that can help you understand what their real time challenges are. And if you start to hear some trends in those conversations, you have a better sense of where they're going. Now, this takes some confidence and fortitude, because what you might be hearing from your customers, and where they are headed, might be different than what they have said before. And different than what the market in your industry has always done or treats as a status quo, and may be different than what your competitors are still executing on. One of the biggest mistakes I see from big companies is they take their lead not from company, not from customers, but from competitors. What are they doing? Let's do that, what features do they launch, we should launch that too. They may be they may have no idea what they're doing. And they are certainly making those decisions based on inherently old data. So the better you can be do making decisions based on real time data. real time insights, one of the most important investments mature companies can make is a deep and meaningful activated Voice of the Customer program. That doesn't just capture insights, it distills those insights into trends. It translates those trends into priorities, and it has accountability for what you're doing to activate and deliver on those priorities. That is an ongoing process. That I think too often big companies start to get to a point where they stop listening. They think they know best, the machine starts doing what the machine wants to do. You respond to noise, which is board members and others saying, look what the competitors are doing. And that's when you lose your edge. Because the companies that are coming up behind you, those upstarts they're like, why are they getting market share? Because they're listening to customers today? And they know what they need, and they're responding anytime.

Brandi Starr  37:52

Yeah, I mean, that is so true. And I think so many topics, come back to voice of customer. And you know, when you talk about product market fit, when you talk about messaging, you know, what's your communication strategy? Like? Everything does come back to exactly what you said, in how close can you stay? to the customer? Right, in order to really, you know, absorb and understand, like, what are their needs? Because yeah, there are especially product based companies, but I've seen it in service as well, where it is very me too. And, you know, it's like, what are they doing? Oh, yeah, we do that to us, to us, to us to like, and you know, it, that's not the way to go? Because you're right, by the time they have it out, if you're trying to just get started with it, you're already behind? Yeah.

Matt Heinz  38:46

Yeah, it's a slippery slope. I mean, you know, it's very dangerous thing. If in your company, we hear someone say, Oh, I know what our customers are doing. I know what they're thinking. And if it's not based on actual direct evidence, if it's not based on recently gathered evidence and reinforcement messages, whew. That's a slippery slope. And that's a dangerous place to be. Yeah.

Brandi Starr  39:03

And so my last question really is in the word predictive, where, you know, you guys really focus a lot on being able to have that predictive revenue. And I know, for so many companies, like, it's seen as only an aspiration to really, you know, be able to say, here's what's coming and when, to any definitive degree. What do you think is, you know, beyond the things that you've already said, What is that catalyst for businesses being able to get to that point where they can, you know, with some certainty really be able to predict how they're going to be able to influence revenue.

Matt Heinz  39:44

So a couple of key things that are you know, I think pretty simple to say, but, but harder to execute sometimes. One is to do attribution, think of attribution in the right way, like a lot of companies do attribution, and it's really focused on the past You know, who gets credit for what? Did my department do the right thing? You know, where did the sales do? What did marketing do if you're if you're focused, if attribution is focused on the past, like, you're doing it wrong, because you can't change the past, attribution is about the future. What worked, I don't care how it worked, I just want to create, I don't want to I want to recreate those steps to have a higher likelihood that I'm going to get the results again. And this is a team sport, we're working here, right? There is no marketing, did it sales did it, especially in b2b, especially in a complex sales environment, figure out what worked, figure out what sequence worked, and build a system in a playbook to reliably repeatedly create that result again, and the playbook will change over time. The people involved in the buying process will change what they care about will evolve over time. So again, listening to the customer, this thing, your industry, evolving that process and playbook over time can increase that level of predictability. There's a point of diminishing returns on that effort, though, because you will never get to 100% predictability. Like it's the same thing as saying like, we're, I think we continue as an industry look for that perfect report that is going to answer every question. And I got a buddy who's a financial planner. And he says, like everyone wants to, like, everyone wants to have 100% confidence in that, like, I'm going to be able to retire, I'm going to have enough money. Here's the number I need, right? And look, you can make a spreadsheet, say anything. But his general philosophy is I think you want to be generally right versus precisely wrong. Yeah, there's a way to orchestrate the right things that are repeatable, to create more predictable outcomes, knowing that you will not 100% be right, but I would rather at 90% be right than 40 50%, right? Or have or in most cases, have no idea. You, let's say you have a great q1, like your hit you hit your number, you're off to a great start for the year. What's your level of confidence? You're gonna have a great q2, what do you know, today? What are you doing today, that materially dramatically increases the likelihood that you're going to have the same result? Do you know? What are the things that led to your q1 success? And can you repeat those? Again? Most companies can't answer that question. And so again, I don't care who gets credit in the past. What really matters is can I repeat that result? Can I learn from that, to have a higher likelihood, never 100%. But a higher likelihood of repeating that result? Again, it requires, as you know, like a culture change in many organizations, to treat this as a team project. And to sort of put some of those egos aside and say, We are not going to win one department versus another, we're going to win as a group.

Brandi Starr  42:51

Yeah, that holistic approach to everything. And, you know, one of the things you hit on that I think is so important that people don't think about is there's a data component to being predictable. And you've got to make sure that you are tracking and collecting the right things in order to be able to answer those questions. And, you know, I hear people talk about how horrible their data is, but it's like, nobody wants to prioritize getting it right. And it's like, there's all these things that you are not going to be able to effectively do and influence if we don't have the information to actually inform those decisions.

Matt Heinz  43:31

Yeah, and I sometimes I'll see people not prioritize the data, because they're still looking for sort of the perfect solution to that data. And I just don't think that ever is going to exist. But if you lean to the data you have if you can correlate certain trends to behavior, if you can create a more generally predictable outcome, through what you see, and then continue to refine that over time, so much more valuable than just trying to make a spreadsheet saying anything so much more valuable than trying to chase that perfect report that in and of itself is, in many cases, a vanity project to say like, here's what we know, here's what we're don't know, here's what we might never know. But we can still improve predictable results over time by listening to what the market says listening to what happened, and using that to predict the future, as opposed to litigate the past.

Brandi Starr  44:22

Awesome. Well, I will end with one really broad question. So you can take it wherever you'd like. But for our listeners, what is your one piece of advice? You can go professional, personal, any direction totally open to you. But what is that one piece of key advice from Matt Heinz?

Matt Heinz  44:44

I'm going to quote Eric Schmidt, former CEO chairman of Google, I remember, years ago, he was on stage at Dreamforce with Marc Benioff and at one point in telling a story he said life is short work with people you enjoy with spend so much time at work, you know, work is a means to an ends, I am grateful that I love the work that I do. I love the people I work with. And I'm very grateful that I'm privileged enough to be able to choose to work with clients that I think align with our values. And if you're gonna happen, things are gonna go wrong, things aren't always gonna go well, you're not gonna have dark days, you're gonna have trying days, the people you work with matter, every day, and especially those days, and life's too short to work with people that just that you don't enjoy. So I think that's, that's been a big one for me. I

Brandi Starr  45:34

love that. And that can be, you know, applied in so many different ways, you know, from your actual career to other places where you spend your time, you know, whether it's volunteering, or whatever it does, it makes all the difference when you enjoy the people. Because there's gonna be ups and downs and everything. And when you're down and you're down with people that you actually care about, it's a much better experience than, you know, being down and also hating those around you.

Matt Heinz  46:06

100% Absolutely, yeah. Well, man,

Brandi Starr  46:10

I have so enjoyed this conversation, I have learned some things I've discovered that our businesses are even more similar than I realized and philosophy. So I really appreciate it. And before we go, tell our audience how they can stay connected with you. Oh,

Matt Heinz  46:29

I mean, I'm on LinkedIn, happy to connect with anyone there. I'm Matt ma TT at Heinz marketing.com. Welcome, anyone connecting, if any of this content resonates, I would love to hear from you and what you're working on in your life and career. And I just just really, really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to share some ideas.

Brandi Starr  46:47

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I hope that everyone has enjoyed my discussion with Matt. Also go back and listen to him on Episode 14, where we talked about community. But we're already at the end. Until next time.

Outro VO  47:06

You've been listening to revenue rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning has just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue rehab dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.