Human-Centric Branding: How Authentic Connections Drive Success

Brandi Starr [00:00:33]:
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host, Brandy Star and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Lindsay Chepkama. Lindsay stands firm in her belief that who is more compelling than what she believes. The most successful brands are built not on any one tech trend, innovation or growth hack, but on human uniqueness, creativity and authentic interactions. That is why she founded Human Brands Win, where she helps founders and thought leaders define what makes them unique and leverage it as their brand's key differentiator and as their business's unfair advantage. Previously, Lindsay spent two decades in global B2B marketing leadership and was most recently the founder and CEO of Casted, a podcast and video marketing platform for B2B brands. Lindsay's achievements have earned her two 40 under 40 awards.

Brandi Starr [00:01:39]:
Lindsay, welcome to Revenue Rehab. Your session begins now.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:01:45]:
Well, thank you so much. It's so good to be here.

Brandi Starr [00:01:49]:
Yes, I'm excited to have you and I know you've been on over 300 podcasts, so I feel privileged to be in that number and get a chance to learn a bit from you today.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:02:02]:
It's my favorite thing to do.

Brandi Starr [00:02:04]:
Awesome. And so before we jump in our topic, I like to break the ice with a little WOOSA moments that I call buzzword banishment. So tell me, what overused word or phrase would you like to get rid of forever?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:02:19]:
It's two letters, AI and I. I love it. I love AI. I really, really do. But man, the hype and the platform that it's been put on the pedestal that it's been placed on, I'm excited for things to fall in their place.

Brandi Starr [00:02:40]:
Yes, it is very similar to when the Internet first got popular and everybody said world Wide web at least 9,000 times a day. And thankfully, AI is at least faster to say than. But I mean, you are right, there is nothing you can read or listen to or see that does not make some mention of AI. So, yeah, we are definitely inundated with it. So I can at least promise to not say AI for this conversation. So we'll put that in the box and throw it away, at least for the next 30 minutes or so. And so now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to revenue rehab today.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:03:34]:
Oh, I want to talk about fear and scarcity. There's a lot of it right now. There's a lot of it all the time. Just being a human, you're surrounded by fear and scarcity all the time. But in marketing, in sales, in any function that touches revenue, which is a lot of people, there's so much fear and scarcity right now, which for forces us to do some pretty silly things out of fear and a scarcity mindset. First and foremost is throwing creativity and human connection out the window and turning to things like I'm going to break the rule and say it AI and to solve all of our problems, when really the answer is in kind of rejecting that fear and scarcity and. And pursuing human connection.

Brandi Starr [00:04:24]:
I love it and I have so many questions. But before I jump into that, I believe in setting intentions. It gives us focus, it gives us purpose, and most important, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our discussion today. So tell me, what's your best intention? What would you like people to take away from the discussion?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:04:47]:
I hope that following our conversation, that everybody who is listening and watching leaves a little bit more audacious and inspired to pursue that which is human and authentic instead of fearfully following and caving to the growth hacks that have that others claim to be proven. So there we go. Inspired.

Brandi Starr [00:05:15]:
Hey, there's so many places that I can start here. And since you started with fear and scarcity, I will start there. So I'd love to hear you talk more around in a B2B environment, in business. You know, what is the fear and scarcity that you are seeing? Help us to, you know, lay the land and get an understanding of your perspective there.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:05:41]:
Yeah, well, I mean, if you're a human being, you know that the last few years have been rough, right? On a global level, on a human level, on a business level, markets are different than they were. The economy is different than it was. Marketing is different than it was. Tech advancements have. Have left a lot of us scrambling to feel like we need to catch up and get ahead of things. And so because of that difficulty comes pressure, right? Because all of our numbers, all of our projections, all of our plans, all of our strategies have really fallen apart or at least taken quite a beating. And with that becomes a lot of pressure. And with that pressure comes a lot of stress and anxiety, which I think we're all feeling.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:06:29]:
And that puts us all into this fear and scarcity mindset. And it's transferred from one to Another, investors are kind of putting it onto companies or stakeholders, leaders are kind of putting it onto their teams. And there's just this, just this air of fear and scarcity that's driving a lot of decisions and is forcing a lot of decisions to be made on things that are all 100% correlated to ROI results, data metrics. And all of those things are good, all of them are good, they're important. That's how businesses go go. But when there's an over indexing on it, that's when we lose things that are also really important for the long game and to build companies that not only weather a storm, but that, that transcend and leave legacies, you know, and.

Brandi Starr [00:07:24]:
You hit on something really key that I had not thought about. If I think back to the beginning of my marketing career, you know, 20 something years ago, I won't totally tell my. There was, there was a lot less fear and taking risk and trying things that are, you know, using another buzzword outside of the box and you know, something that had never been done before. Those, it was a lot more the norm. And there was a lot of comfort in that. You could try something and it could fail. And you know, we didn't have cancel culture so you didn't have to worry about like your brand reputation totally being tanked because you tried something that didn't work and we didn't have all the measurement because. And I am wondering if in addition to just all the things that have happened over the last four years, in addition to that, with the technology we have the ability to measure so much more.

Brandi Starr [00:08:29]:
And being able to measure sends up that smoke signal of this didn't work and here's what it costs. And I feel like that may also play a big role into that fear factor of I'm scared to take risk because if I take a risk and I fail, I could take our tank, our brand, I could waste all this money, investors, layoffs, you know, all of the things.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:08:55]:
Yeah.

Brandi Starr [00:08:56]:
Do you think that, that our ability to measure has over time deteriorated our comfort?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:09:04]:
Absolutely. And I think here's a good personal life example that I think outside of business, there are so many wearable devices like rings and watches and everything that can measure your sleep. Right. And it's a very short line to draw from wearing a device that helps you improve your sleep to tracking every single detail of your sleep. So now you're obsessed about your sleep and all the data of your sleep. So you're not listening to your body anymore. You're listening to data metrics. Telling you how to sleep and lo and behold, you can't sleep anymore.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:09:38]:
And so that's happening on a business level too. When, when people are afraid to again, fear and scarcity, to take a chance and to say I have an idea or I think I know our audience pretty well, what if we, or wouldn't it be cool if, or what if we tried. Have we asked about when we stop having those conversations and are literally just looking at numbers and metrics and data that's, I mean there's no creativity there and there's no one's holding space for that creativity. So how do you expect there to be any. And without creativity, how do you expect there to be human connection when we're saying, hey, we calculated this opportunity to build a relationship with you and if we see signs at this inflection point that the data told us as important, we're going to leave you behind. Like that doesn't build relationships, you know, and that's not a very fun situation to be in as a, as a, as a marketer or someone, you know, in a revenue seat.

Brandi Starr [00:10:37]:
Yeah. And I could definitely continue down the rabbit hole of the impacts of this fear and scarcity and the fact that we are over measuring, but I want to shift a little bit and make the connection from that fear and scarcity to human connection, to the tie to a brand and more specifically this as a competitive differentiator because so many of us are in very crowded markets and you know, there's, everybody's inundated with marketing messages. No matter, you know, what role you are, you are someone's icp, so you're, you're getting hit with everything. So talk to me more about the connection between the two and you know, how human brands actually win. Why is this human connection the thing we need to lean into?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:11:32]:
Well, again, when you, when you're looking at your own buying decisions, right, Even if, if you're a human and you buy things, whether it's for your home or you're purchasing on behalf of your business, you're a human making a human decision, Right. And those decisions are made when you have a connection with something. And so yes, you're looking at competitive differentiators, you're looking at pricing, you're looking at feature sets and value props, of course. But at the end of the day, people connect with story people, people resonate with the brands that say they get me, they understand my problems, they understand what it's like to be in my seat, they understand the challenges they, that I face, they understand how my professional challenges impact my personal life. They get me. And you have to hold space for that. So if you are a business leader of a very, very small company, a solopreneur, all the way up to somebody who's making decisions at an enterprise, you have an opportunity with the things that you're doing anyway to ask yourself some questions, to say, does this. Does this get me closer to or further from connecting on a human level with my audience?

Brandi Starr [00:12:46]:
I like that question. And I'm like, I want to give that some space because that's not how we make decisions. And collectively, we are very driven by what are the things we need to do to make our number right. And we do have a lot of people that talk about customer centricity and putting the customer at the center of everything and focusing on the customer, which then allows the revenue to come. And this human connection is a component of that. But what I'm hearing you talk about is just a much deeper level of that. It's not just thinking about the customer. It is thinking about the human connection that that person has with the brand.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:13:36]:
That's right. And I also, I mean, I've worked with, and I know, like, you have, and there's a lot, like, a wide range of people that are like, joining us for this conversation right now, some that are like, yeah, I control a company and I can make big decisions and I can decide where, you know, where we invest. And, you know, in 2025, that's going to be the year that we make more human connection. There are some people that do have the power to do that if they want to. There are others that are sitting here saying, look, I am a, I don't know, a marketing manager. I am a BDR at a company. Like, what am I going to do? And the fact of the matter is we each have decisions every single day. With the blog post, we're going to write, the sales call, we're going to make the, you know, customer survey, we're going to send out whatever it may be, and we can pause for half a second and ask ourselves some questions and ask ourselves, like I said earlier, does this get me closer to or further from making human connections? And the fact there, there is no in between.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:14:32]:
If you move in one direction or another, you either get closer to something or farther away. There is no way to, like, stay. There is no, like, staying exactly the same. And so if something as small as how you word something or the way you approach something, all the way on up to a strategy that you take and the investments that you make in your business, you have the ability to get more human or less human. And that's. That's a mindset. Right? I know that's very ethereal, and people want frameworks and numbers and how to do things. But it starts with your mindset that will.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:15:08]:
That will impact how you view your numbers and how you approach your strategy and how you lead your team. It just. It trickles through everything.

Brandi Starr [00:15:17]:
And so, you know, we're almost at the end of the year. Everybody is thinking about 2025 already, and we're all in our various phases of planning. And so I'd love to hear you just talk a bit more about, you know, I. As a marketing leader, as I am going into my next year, and I have to shape my company's brand, I have to shape my team. I have to shape how, you know, we're seen in the marketplace. There's all these things that, as a leader, I now need to influence, help me think differently. Because I love that it's not, you know, as much as I love a good framework and some steps, I do know that a lot of times it does start with our mindset. And so I'd love to just hear you talk about that more in a way that our audience can start to internalize how they should be thinking different, to really make sure that the steps they're taking are always moving them closer to that human connection.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:16:21]:
Okay, I have. Because I like frameworks, too, even though I think that they are a thing and not the thing. So I haven't. I have an acrostic, so it's what you can. If you can remember the word brave. I have five things for you to think about as you approach. Like I said, anything from writing a blog post all the way on up to, like, signing off on your entire business strategy for 2025. And that's brave.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:16:44]:
So brand. Does this strengthen the brand so that it can transcend and build a legacy and avoid becoming a commodity? Like, how will this decision that I'm making impact the brand? Two are relationships. Does this get me closer to or farther from the people that are most aligned to the vision? Okay, so like, brand relationships. A is audacity. Does it. Are you. You said thinking outside the box, and I don't care if it's a buzzword. I think it's important.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:17:19]:
So does this align with big ideas and trying something new? Does it hold space for creativity? Right. V is values. Does it support the brand's core values or distance us from what we believe is important? As a brand. And then E is energy. Does this give. Because there are so many good ideas that depending on the time that that idea lands or the team that you have or don't, does this give us energy or deplete it? What. What does my gut tell me? So that's. There you go.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:17:52]:
That's. That's my five things. Brave brand relationships. Audacity, values, energy. And it's a good little scorecard for you to weigh decisions. Like I said, anything from very, very small all the way up to very, very big, that either gets you closer to or further from taking steps to be more human.

Brandi Starr [00:18:09]:
As a brand, I think I really, the A and the E really made me hone in on those. Because if I think about brand, I do think that that is a common thought process in terms of how does this impact our brand. I definitely agree that we can probably give it some more and some different thought relationship we probably don't do as well at. And I say we making some assumptions about the collective industry values. You know, companies that have strong values, they, they tend to align to that. But audacity and energy are two where I would say, and you know, as a consultant, I get to the pleasure of working with a lot of different companies that audacity. I love the word audacity because it's got a positive and a negative. But no matter what it means, you got some chutzpah, you got some nerves.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:19:08]:
I've been called audacious in not a good way. And I'm still like, you know what? I'll take it.

Brandi Starr [00:19:13]:
Yes, yes. And that audacity, like I even think, you know, I always joke about like little kids, like toddlers, you know, and, and that, that five and under, they got mega audacity because, you know, they just don't care. They just live and they, they, you know, they do big things, they have big ideas. And so I'm always joking, you know, with little kids, I'm like the audacity. Like, it's a phrase I use all the time. And in thinking about business, I don't have that reaction enough. And I think that goes back to what you were saying in the beginning of naturally, that fear and scarcity, where you play it safe way too often because safe is comfortable and comfortable is familiar and you know, all of those sorts of things. So I do think, like that's a key place is, does this feel audacious? Like, are we pushing and on something that gives us a little bit of uncomfortableness and if not, like we need to push A little harder.

Brandi Starr [00:20:18]:
And then I'm also really big on energy. And that's one of the reasons why revenue rehab has a little play on therapy feel. Because that mental health energy, all of those things, all the woo woo stuff, I'm totally with it. And thinking about what allows you to feel energized versus what is draining you, like just having that as a gut check. Because even thinking about, if I think about the campaigns we ran in the last year, yeah. I can think of some of them that working on them and working with my team, they gave me energy. If they had questions or wanted to brainstorm, I was like, all in. And I would get off the phone with them and I would feel focused and jazzed.

Brandi Starr [00:21:01]:
And then there were other projects that it was like, oh my God, we're.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:21:05]:
Still talking about why are we doing this.

Brandi Starr [00:21:06]:
Yeah, this is still running. That's not over. And like just having that gut check of like those things that feel draining, just stop them.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:21:19]:
Yeah, yeah.

Brandi Starr [00:21:21]:
And, you know, it just, it sounds so simple. Like if it's draining your energy, just don't do that. And I mean, obviously there are always certain things in business, you know, that are going to be draining and have to get done. Like, that kind of is what it is, but just like really leaning into that, I think is, is so it, like my brain is just like, this seems so simple, but this is such a good measuring stick. And so I'd like to talk about impact because, you know, people have to have a why. And changing your mindset and how you think is hard. You know, it's, it's much easier to just follow some steps or a framework or a blueprint. But changing our perspective is really hard.

Brandi Starr [00:22:10]:
So help me understand why this is something we need to give energy to. What is the win for leaders, for businesses when you get this right?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:22:23]:
Well, it's internal and it's external. Right. So internal. If you are making decisions with this framework, you're going to be happier because you're holding space. First of all, you're talking about mental health. Like, you are actually taking a hot second and saying, is this the right thing? Like, should we be doing this? Am I approaching, am I at least, at the very least approaching this for the right reasons, with the right energy? Am I from a big business decision? It's like, is this right? Am I just swept up in the inertia? Or is this actually what's best for the business, our people and the people we're trying to serve? And then on the outside, when you are leading that way, when you are operating that way, people feel it. I mean, think about the companies, the businesses that you buy from, B2B and B2C in your professional life and in your personal life, you can feel it when the decisions are made with you in mind as the buyer. You can.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:23:21]:
And the businesses that, despite the economic climate, despite what's happening in the world, despite what's happening in the industry, choose to put human. I mean, it sounds so cheesy and cliche, but it's true. When they put people first, when they make decisions based on how does this serve our audience, how do we, how do we need to mold and adapt and flex and do whatever we need to do to serve? You can feel it. Those are the companies that transcend. Those are the companies that leave legacies. Those are the companies that last. They do so much more than just weather a storm and make it through to the other side with a product intact. They're the ones with customers who appreciate them and are loyal and tell others it's.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:24:07]:
It's worth it for the long game to see beyond the fear and scarcity and to prioritize human connection and hold space for creativity. It matters in the long term.

Brandi Starr [00:24:21]:
I agree. And I'm thinking about those people who are listening and are feeling like, this sounds amazing, but this ain't my company. Like this. We are so far from being an authentic brand and our brand having human connections. And I see it all the time, you know, I'm editing marketing copy for clients and looking at their campaigns and things like that and, you know, so much of it. And I just did an exercise with a client where I read an email out loud to them and just hearing it out loud, I could visibly see on the zoom that they were cringing.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:25:04]:
Yeah.

Brandi Starr [00:25:05]:
And this, and this was their stuff like that they were actively sending out that, you know, they wrote or approved the writing. And it's like the brand voice and how they are putting themselves out there are just so far away from that human connection that it almost feels like turning a cruise ship. Like, yes, you know, we know we want to turn and eventually we'll get there, but it's, you know, it becomes an 18 month project.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:25:39]:
Right.

Brandi Starr [00:25:40]:
And you know, if you think about the tenure of marketing leaders, we don't always have 18 months. You know, I'm blessed. I'm coming up on 10 years here, which is, you know, a total anomaly.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:25:52]:
Amazing.

Brandi Starr [00:25:53]:
And so what do we say to those people where they're like, this sounds amazing. We're not anywhere near there. How do we get there? Like, how do you start turning the ship when, you know, you are so far from that, you know, being a brand with a human connection.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:26:11]:
Yeah, you're right. It is kind of like turning a cruise ship. And it depends on the seat that you're sitting in. It depends on the resources that you have. It depends on the buy in that you have. Like, at all. Like every. I think the answer to in every question related to marketing is it depends.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:26:27]:
And this is another one of those instances, however, why it's so important to me to equip everybody with this framework that works for me is that again, even if you're approaching your, you know, you get to post to social media, you own the LinkedIn account, right? Or you write the emails, or you are, you know, editing a podcast, or you, whatever it is, you have 100 choices in every day that you can say, okay, I can operate from fear and scarcity, or I can take a hot minute, I can go through my brave framework, and I can see if I'm going to write this post in a way that at least I believe is going to get us closer to establishing human connections and then. Or further from. And if that's just your little corner of the world, I guarantee you it will be better. And if you are, you know, a marketing leader or a business leader saying, okay, I get it, but just like what you said, it's going to take a long time, well, then maybe look at the overall strategy and make some bigger, more sweeping decisions that will get you there faster. But it's not. It will not happen overnight. There is no way to go into a boardroom and write on a whiteboard and overnight have a human brand because you have to establish relationships. You have to earn trust.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:27:41]:
You have to show everyone that your priority is. Is them. And that takes a minute, but it's worth it. And it. It is every. It's one decision at a time. And the bigger decisions and the higher up those decisions can go, the faster it will happen.

Brandi Starr [00:28:00]:
I love that. And, you know, I always, my favorite episodes are always the ones where I got to remind myself that I got to ask the questions because my brain is, you know, going on and on with what the guests says. And I'm definitely having one of those moments because I'm like, oh, like, there's this and there's that and there's that. And, you know, when you start to think about it that way, like, I can even think in some of the plans that I have in my 2025 marketing plan. And I'm like, that's not audacious. That's pretty safe. I'm gonna, you know, after this, you know, episode, I'm gonna go back and make some changes there because I have played it fairly safe in some of the goals and some of the tactics. So I do see that there are some immediate impacts that we can all have as individuals.

Brandi Starr [00:28:56]:
The last thing that I want to kind of circle back to was we talked about the, the human brand as a competitive differentiator and we kind of touched on the surface and then went in a little bit of a different direction. And I want to come back to that because, you know, being in a crowded market, as a lot of us are, you're always looking for that thing that stands out. And typically it's the product or the service. And so help me to visualize and truly understand how does that show up? When you recognize that what you sell maybe completely on par with one or more competitors, but that your brand and specifically that human connection is the differentiator, how does that really show up in the marketplace? How do you get that, like, truly get that across to your customers who are often conditioned to have the, you know, side by side table of this versus that and generally, you know, how does the brand make me feel? Isn't a line in that comparison. So how do you really lean into that in a meaningful way?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:30:16]:
It does. It doesn't show up in the rfp, but it shows up in the decision. Like we can't, we don't mark it off on the rfp, but I know I have, and I bet you have. When you're, when you are comparing all the apples to apples, like you're pulling for one over the other. And that's where that shows up, right? And what it looks like is it's story. It happens in story. In small companies where there's still a founder that's leading and very much involved. I always work with them to say, like, what's the why, why are you doing this? What is, who are you? Why are you here? What, what is this to you? And we pull out that story and it's not about a value prop and it's not about a business opportunity.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:30:57]:
There's always something deep and human in that founder. There's a reason that you, you, you leave everything and you take such a risk to start a business. I've been there. It's part of who you are. And the louder and clearer that that story is, it connects with people because story and then empathy, part of that story is Natural empathy. It's the, oh, they're doing this because they get me. This company gets me. They understand me.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:31:22]:
And that also shows up in really large companies that it's not about a founder story. Then it flips to the we understand our customers, and it becomes the customer stories told in ways that are, hey, this business serves people that are like me. That under they understand me. So at the end of the day, it is story. It's the, who is this for? Why are we doing it? And proving over and over again that your business understands the people that they serve in a very human way. That's the difference. And like I, like I said beginning of this response, it may not show up when you're filling out an rfp, but it absolutely shows up in the way that that RFP is presented. The.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:32:04]:
The bow that is wrapped around it and the way that people feel when they receive it and all of their interactions with you. And it absolutely shows up in the decision.

Brandi Starr [00:32:15]:
I'll say my next mission is to get it in RFP questions.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:32:18]:
That's right. How does this brand make me feel? I mean, I think it's a fair question.

Brandi Starr [00:32:23]:
I mean, it really is. And that is such, such a great point because you are right. Anytime I have been, you know, pulling, like, having to make a decision, I do have my internal favorite. And I'm trying to be objective in, you know, whatever criteria is most important. But there is something about the brand that either I connect with the brand or I feel like they're easy to work with or, you know, there are all of those, like, internal motivators that people connect with that I do agree. Brands don't lean heavy enough into, like, what are people really care about Y.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:33:03]:
Exactly.

Brandi Starr [00:33:04]:
Well, Lindsay, talking about our challenges is just the first step. And nothing changes if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework, but here at revenue Rehab, we like to split that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So what is your one thing? If people are listening and they're like, I need to. I need to be brave. I love, you know, I love the not acronym, but you know what I mean? Like, what's that one thing? Where should they start?

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:33:37]:
Hold space for creativity. If you are, especially if you're a leader, like, if you kind of hold the keys in any way, shape or form, that can look like a lot of different roles. Hold space for creativity. Give people permission to be creative. It'll make a big difference.

Brandi Starr [00:33:57]:
Ah, I love that. And there's. There's Definitely some people that I know will be listening that need to have a moment of reflection to even recognize where they may be stifling creativity. And that is a hard thing as a leader to be able to see. So being able to hold that space, I love that as our action item. And Lindsay, I have truly enjoyed our discussion, but that's our time for today. So before we go tell our audience how can they connect with you and definitely give the shameless plug for Human Brands Win.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:34:36]:
Absolutely. Yep, you can find me. I'm very active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there if you can spell my name. If you can't spell my name, you can go to human brands win.com which also links up to Lindsay Chap. They feed into the same place and you can find me there. And then I also, I made a fun little scorecard with this braving acrostic that gives you a bunch of questions to ask yourself as you're approaching decisions. So we'll give a link to that too so you can download it if you so choose.

Brandi Starr [00:35:07]:
Awesome. Well, we will make sure we'll link to your LinkedIn so nobody has to remember the spelling. And then we will also link to Human Brands Win. So check the show notes wherever you are listening or watching this podcast. Well, Lindsay, thanks again for joining me. You've given me some things to think about and I definitely have enjoyed the discussion.

Lindsay Tjepkema [00:35:29]:
Me too. Thank you so much.

Brandi Starr [00:35:31]:
Awesome. Well, thanks everyone for joining me. I hope you have enjoyed my discussion with Lindsay. I can't believe we're at the end. Until next time. Bye. Bye.