Inclusive Innovation: The Economic Imperative for Diverse Sales Teams

Brandi Starr [00:00:33]:
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host, Brandy Star and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Janice B. Gordon. Janice is known as the customer growth expert and uses her 20 plus years of business, sales and customer experience to unleash hidden potential and accelerate revenue growth with buyer alignment by closing the gap between people and process. Janice is listed by LinkedIn Sales 15 Innovating Sales Influencers to Follow and awarded RevTech Strategist 2024. Janice is an author, co author and the founder of Scale youe Sales Framework and host of Scales yous Sales Podcast which advocates for diversity in sales. Welcome to Revenue Rehab.

Brandi Starr [00:01:28]:
Your session begins now. Thank you. I'm so glad to have you here. I feel like I am in the company of sales royalty all the way from the uk. So glad to have you here.

Janice B. Gordon [00:01:49]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me. And I would ditto that as well. Sells realty most definitely. Brandy.

Brandi Starr [00:01:58]:
Well, I like to start and break the ice with a little woosah moments that I call buzzword banishment. So tell me, what industry buzzword would you like to get rid of? Forever.

Janice B. Gordon [00:02:13]:
Forever Hunter. Along with that Target. We're not on the safari. It's. We need to treat our customers with respect and it's not just about the language we may use internally. We think, well, it's okay because we're only using that within our sales teams in our environment. It actually affects your mentality about how you treat people. I would love to banish these words.

Janice B. Gordon [00:02:42]:
We're not hunting anything. We haven't got them in our target it. We need to treat our customers with respect. Please, please, can we banish it? This has been a campaign for a long, long time of mine.

Brandi Starr [00:02:54]:
I really, I support it.

Janice B. Gordon [00:02:57]:
Great.

Brandi Starr [00:02:57]:
I do. It is, you know, it is one of those things that the term hunter does. It makes it seem like your ideal customer is prey and that we're being predatory and that we're trying to, you know, corner and hunt them. And so I support it. You know, I don't know how far our campaign will go, but at least for this conversation, I will put it in the box, throw away the key. You will not hear me use the term hunters. Target will Be a little harder because I am so used to saying target audience, but I would love to change that phrasing and just say ideal customer. So now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to revenue rehab today?

Janice B. Gordon [00:03:45]:
Right. Well, another campaign of mine. We're both black women here and we're in the minority in sales. And so I'd like to extend that out to the wider fabric of people in that for so long, for too long, we've seen 17% of sales leaders are women. Now, we're not even going down the kind of ethnic minority, only 17%. But for many years, women have been the top sales performers. And there's perhaps the figures change. It's like 20 to 30% of sales people are women.

Janice B. Gordon [00:04:32]:
And again, it's an absolute minority, a very small figure when we're talking about ethnic minority, minority. Now, this is not representative of our audience of buyers. They are diverse, they're very worldly. You know, we're selling to the globe, even if you're selling online, and they look different, they have different experiences, and our sales teams need to reflect that. So I really would like to discuss how diverse sales teams can really drive better results. We know statistically that's the case, but how can we make this happen within our revenue generating environments?

Brandi Starr [00:05:15]:
I would agree, holistically. And I think about, you know, if I think about everything that I've had to buy, you know, in the context of the B2B space, the majority of the time the person that is selling to me has been a white male. And occasionally we'll have a little more ethnic diversity, but it's still a male. And so I can definitely say, just in, you know, my own anecdotal experience, that I definitely see the disparity in, you know, a lack of diversity. And so before we really dive into it, I believe in setting intentions. It gives us focus, it gives us purpose, and most important, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our discussion today. So what would you like people listening to take away from our conversation?

Janice B. Gordon [00:06:08]:
Sometimes you don't see what's in front of you. So I'd like us to make people more aware that there is an issue and actually not just in sales, in their teams. Look around. Who is in. I want you to be aware, I want you to see who's in your leadership team. What is the makeup? Who are your managers, what is the makeup? And your company and culture. So it doesn't matter what race you come from. I want you to be Aware of the diversity within your organization, not just in sales, across the board.

Janice B. Gordon [00:06:42]:
So the first thing is to become aware, open your eyes, have a look, do the numbers. And the second thing is to think about what part you play as well in either reflecting a narrow range of people. How can you broaden out your experience to be comfortable in the world with a diverse audience? Because we tend to select the same. So. And also, you know, there'll be some takeaways at the end of this as to what we can do, what is the way forward. It's always good to actually have something that people can take away. So hopefully our discussion, I'm sure with me and you, Brandy, we're going to have lots of those from our own personal experience of how we can improve the situation.

Brandi Starr [00:07:38]:
Yes. And I definitely, you know, as any woman who has been in the corporate world for any length of time, I definitely got stories. And so I want to start with the why does this matter? And, you know, there's some obvious things around diversity, what the world looks like. But I want to. I would love to hear you answer the question from a business perspective in terms of, you know, most corporations, whether, you know, they're good people or not, they care about growing their business. And so how does this. How does the need for diversity or the lack thereof actually impact the results that are coming out of an organization, especially in the sales function?

Janice B. Gordon [00:08:28]:
Yeah. Okay. So the first thing is we're not reflective of our audience of people. And so historically, we hear stories where we've had, you know, a typical white men that are presenting in, say, Dubai, and you miss the. So much of the nuances that you're going to be that you'll miss because the environment you're coming from, there's no one within your team, and you may actually be insulting your customer and not know about it. So having a diverse group of people in your team, when you're putting together your proposals, where you're presenting, it means that you're not falling into those cultural traps. Because there's someone saying, hang on a moment. It's not like that.

Janice B. Gordon [00:09:22]:
In that. In other people's world, we tend to think if it's not within our experience, then that experience doesn't exist. We don't value it. So by having a diverse leadership team, by having other diversity within, you're better able to communicate and sell to other audiences. You're not going to fall into those traps. Also, when we think of the world that we're in, can you imagine if the business world was only created of men and not women. Now, we know that women are great creators and innovators. We also know that women in the family personal environment spend a good 80% of the family income, even big ticket incomes.

Janice B. Gordon [00:10:19]:
And in the business environment, they are big spenders as well. And so the thing is, if you only have one gender of people or dominance of one gender of people, then you're, you're not able to relate to the people that are actually spending the money and you're probably not going to be able to innovate and create the type of products and services that that group of people are looking for because you haven't got them in the audience. Now, there's lots of research that has, has been done in terms of diverse audience, diverse teams are more productive. We've had these figures, whether it's from the Harvard Business Review, many, many organizations have been, have done these for the last 10 years or 15 years. But that hasn't changed the makeup of the team. So there's no point quoting those because we know about that. But that hasn't changed the makeup of the teams. Right.

Janice B. Gordon [00:11:17]:
We know it means they're not any more productive, but they're more profitable. But that isn't moving the needle. What's important, I think, is that it's not reflective of the. And even if you think from a moral point of view, we could say it's the right thing to do, but that's not moving the needle either. So if you're not able to sell to an audience, you're not able to get the revenue in and your future is at risk. And it's really, I think it's got to be an economic imperative as to why it's important to do this more than a moral imperative. Because that doesn't work.

Brandi Starr [00:11:59]:
Yeah, and that's really what I was getting at because there's obviously good people in the world who care. I've been, you know, I can think back to during the time when the George Floyd mortar happened and, you know, everything was going on here in the US I was a part of a number of discussions where I was the only minority in the discussion. And being able to hear, you know, those of the majority who were genuinely trying to figure out how to make a positive impact, going back to what you said around what they influence in figuring out how to not be performative and not just, you know, be focused on that moment, but how to systematically make a change because they morally felt compelled to. And so I do believe that there are those people who morally want to change unfortunately, that's not the mass majority or we would see a lot of differences in corporations. So I love that you have hit on the economic aspect because at the end of the day that's, you know, that's what everybody in business cares about. And I do see, I've seen the studies, you know, not that particular one, but I've seen others that also support that in terms of productivity, revenue growth, all of these different things. And if I look at different functions within an organization, we have seen for many functions a lot more diverse teams developing sales seems to be one of those that is still consistently falling behind. Like if we were to look at the numbers in a large corporation, you'd see diversity in certain pockets of the organization.

Brandi Starr [00:13:50]:
But by and large sales teams 10 to, you know, be consistently hiring more of the same. Why do you think this challenge exists more within the sales function than other parts of the organization?

Janice B. Gordon [00:14:06]:
Okay, so diverse. We know that diversity enhances everything from strategic thinking. So we're thinking about the economic, we're thinking about the leadership team, but also to, you know, building relationships. We talked about the customers. Revenue leaders today are dealing with a customer base that is increasingly varied and needs their needs and preferences and values. Right. So your team reflects that diversity and naturally connects with them. And in fact, the studies show that diverse teams are 33% more likely to outperform.

Janice B. Gordon [00:14:46]:
I think that we know those figures, but we don't know how to make a difference. So you know, like it's like when you can see the osis, but you can't, you don't know how to get there. You know, there isn't a structured approach of how to make that difference, how to foster inclusive teams. What's the starting point? And you know what, There isn't any one starting point. The problem is that because there isn't any one starting point, it's difficult for anyone to start.

Brandi Starr [00:15:23]:
You know, if there's only one way.

Janice B. Gordon [00:15:25]:
In, then that's the way you would take. Every organization is completely different. And we know that cell specific assessments can predict success with over 80% accuracy. We're not using this enough and we have personality tests. What is that going to do? That doesn't mean you're going to be great at sales. And what I mean about the assessments being able to be predictive, it's verified and it's sales specific. It's not Myers Briggs that you can use. It's got to be sales specific.

Janice B. Gordon [00:16:02]:
You know, if you want to change the sales and the revenue, it's got to be Sales specific. And it helps to build high performing teams, but it also helps to build diverse teams when those assessments are Anonymous and the 80% accuracy is based upon on the job performance. So what we need to do, we need to recruit, we need to manage, we need to coach, we need to select our leaders not just by the top performers. We, you know, not necessarily a great leader just because you're a top performer. We need to do a lot of what we've done in the past. We need to start doing it differently because we all know it's insanity if you keep doing the same thing, expect a different result. So that this is why in the sales industry we keep doing the same thing. This is why it's not changing.

Janice B. Gordon [00:16:57]:
There are ways to make it change. So we just, we know if you have a robust sales assessment that is anonymous. So we're taking the bias out of choosing who is great or assessing performance. We're taking all that, we have 20 different biases. We're taking all of that out and we're actually then looking at the data and looking at the individual, not the group, at the team, the individual. Now from a recruitment point of view, if before we have a fall in love with the individual, before that salesperson sells themselves, if we gave them a sales specific, a specific assessment and that assessment says that they, they're recommended to, for your industry, for your market, to be on the job, top performer, we recommend that person, it's anonymous. All of a sudden we've got a level playing field. We've taken out the bias and the best rises to the top.

Janice B. Gordon [00:18:06]:
You will get a diverse team naturally because you haven't put all of the biases in place. That creates all the blocks and barriers for the diverse people to get through.

Brandi Starr [00:18:19]:
Yeah, I think you hit on some really good points because there is a lot of unconscious bias in the hiring process. And probably about, I guess it's been 6ish years ago, we went through as a leadership team a number of exercises to objectively look at our hiring process, our job descriptions, all of those things to identify where there could be unconscious bias and remove it. And you know, even as a black woman who has experienced a lot of unconscious bias, there were so many things that were brought up that just never even clicked for me that they created bias. So to me, you know, I'll give you a couple examples. One, education. So for certain roles growing up I was always taught you had to have a college degree. And so it didn't feel like a, you know, discriminatory practice or something. That was a bias to say for this senior level role a degree is required.

Brandi Starr [00:19:24]:
But there are, you know, what I learned through this process was there are so many paths that people take and many, especially minorities, are not afforded the opportunity to go to college. But it doesn't mean they haven't earned the same experience and learned what they need to learn to be successful in the role. So even looking at some of the wording and requirements that are in job descriptions are like to me, that first step in removing unconscious bias. And then I love what you're, you're talking about in doing an assessment, we do something similar where before even looking at a resume like we don't take resumes out the gate, we have an assessment that is role specific. You know, it's custom, it's custom developed for our roles. So it's not like just a function thing, but it is role specific that is doing exactly what you're talking about in assessing what is the likelihood that this person will be successful in this job. And if they pass that assessment, they get through. And you know, we had a funny scenario where a phlebotomist was applying for a role that is kind of equivalent to a project manager.

Brandi Starr [00:20:42]:
And it's one of those things that had we looked at that resume first, we would have easily dismissed it. Like, what does drawing blood have to do with managing projects like these two things, you know, are not like each other. But because of that assessment, we were able to see that for whatever reason, this person's life had taken them down the career path of being a phlebotomist. However, they had natural talents to potentially be a project manager. And so we kept going with them through the hiring process. And so I love that you are doing that in sales. Are there other ways that you see companies helping to remove some of that unconscious bias in recruiting and the hiring process?

Janice B. Gordon [00:21:32]:
You know, I. You've made some excellent, excellent points here, Brandy, in that you often sales team sales leaders will let recruiters do the hiring that haven't got the experience that do it, that will recruit in the same way that we recruit for an administrator. Cells is very different and that's why we need a really robust at cell specific predictive and verified. You know, this what I use is the only cells specific. It's been got 30 years of data. Now when I go out and I keynote, I use a lot of that data to evidence how wrong we've got it. We often recruit extroverts. 63% of the top 5% of salespeople in the world are introverts.

Janice B. Gordon [00:22:33]:
So we have certain assumptions of what a great salesperson is and we're often. More often we're wrong than we're right. So the other area I mentioned that we promote the top sellers into leadership management roles, well, that's like, you know, apples and pears. To be a manager, to manage people, you could take somebody that has been in an administrative role that will potentially be a better manager because it's not about them, it's all about the team. And it's ensuring everyone's got everything they need to be the best they can be. That is very different to someone that's all about me. And I'm, I'm, you know, the top sales performer and do it the way that I've done it and you'll be okay too, you know, you'll be a top sell performance. It really is apples and pears.

Janice B. Gordon [00:23:35]:
So that's another area where we really need to stop doing this. And we do it particularly in sales and also coaching. We know more so than training if you want to change behaviors, you need to coach and needs to be ongoing, needs to be regular. Well, you take the assessment. So it's the last 30 years, it's over 2.6 million assessments. It's very robust and it's verified and it's predictive. So now it's an individual document that you can then convert to your onboarding document. You know so much about that individual.

Janice B. Gordon [00:24:13]:
What motivates them, Is it intrinsically motivated or extrinsically? You need to know that as a manager to know what switches them on. And so you take that into your onboarding document, you take it into your coaching document. What's the point in coaching for the deal if you haven't coached the individual? But you know, it's like looking in a black box. You know nothing about that individual. You have all of this Data. There's like 462 data points and it helps to guide that manager to be able to ensure that that individual is in the top quartile, the best they can be because you have so much information on them. So you know, so it's an individual. You can use it in recruitment, you can use it on your existing team.

Janice B. Gordon [00:25:00]:
How many sales leaders take on, join a company, have a team and they have no idea it's that black box again or you know, foggy crystal ball. They have no idea what they've got and they've suddenly got all of these high targets that they, they've, they've got to meet and they don't know what team they, they've got to work with. It takes them a good six months, a year to work out. Actually they've got a lot of dross in there that they need to get rid of. Meanwhile, their reputation on the boards has gone right down because it's taken them so long, you know. Instead, if you were to do this assessment on your team, the individuals you know, you know from this data, 77% of sellers should not be in sales or in the wrong role in sales. If you know that, all of a sudden you can have a smaller sales team, an elite, from a productive point of view, sales team, you know what you've got, you can make decisions quickly. The individuals understand more about what is great about what they do.

Janice B. Gordon [00:26:08]:
Keep doing that, they understand themselves better. You look like a rock star as a sales leader. You're in the top quartile consistently because you know how to coach. Your managers are coaching. I mean, wouldn't you really want to go into a situation and have a clear crystal ball with a roadmap of how to achieve the targets that you have signed up to that's in your contract? Well, why wouldn't you do that? It's a win win for everybody. So from a manager's point of view, a leader's point of view, individual's point of view, we cannot afford just to recruit more salespeople in order to achieve our revenue goals. We've got to be able to, to coach and work with the team that we've got. And that means we need to build high performing teams.

Brandi Starr [00:27:01]:
Yeah, and that is a great point because so often the solution, you know, that people think is hire more salespeople. And you know, anytime, I mean the recruitment process, the onboarding, getting them to learn the products, like hiring more salespeople, even if that was the answer, isn't a quick fix. So you've touched on the hiring process, you've touched a bit on how to make sure that we have the right people in leadership who are able to lead and coach and guide people. The one other thing that I really want to touch on that I have observed is a big detractor for diversity in sales is being able to foster an inclusive culture. You know, although I've always worked in marketing, at many points in my career, my role has been very adjacent and involved with the sales teams. And what I have seen is it has not been very inclusive to women or minorities. Like if I look at, you know, a lot of the, you know, they always say the deals are made on the golf course. And, you know, that has been, I mean, continues.

Brandi Starr [00:28:13]:
I don't think it's as dominant, but continues to be a thing. I can remember talking to a friend who all of the sales leaders and some of the top sellers were all in a fantasy football league together. So they were all, you know, bonding and having this time that the women weren't even asked to participate. You know, and there are women like myself who are very into football and fantasy football. But like, there seems to be so many of the culture things in sales that, you know, are not only not inclusive, but can also be off putting, especially for women. Have you seen that as well? And how do you see companies addressing that to help with diversity?

Janice B. Gordon [00:29:06]:
Oh, Brandy, you know, I'm often on sales panel and you have like, kind of whether it's SDRs and we, you know, we'll. They'll ask us questions, guaranteed what comes out, how uncomfortable they felt with customers. And then their manager has not backed them up because it's been sexual or, you know, just inappropriate or within the team. And their leader has not back them up. I hear that all the time. I mean, we're not in the 1990s anymore, really, but we're still getting this. I got that when I was, you know, in the 1990s and it just makes me really angry and that we're still having to talk about this. And so I often say in recruitment, you have got to interview the, your manager.

Janice B. Gordon [00:29:58]:
You've got to identify who the manager manager is. You're the one doing the interviewing. You need to know that you're going to be backed up before you're in a difficult situation where you're going to be undermined and you're going to start to lose confidence. You need to make sure you're asking those questions before you start that role and you know how to kind of craft those questions. So this is still happening in our industry and we need to start changing that. But, you know, in terms of the culture, you know, before you join, you need to really interrogate what the culture is and talk to people at different levels before you join to really identify what they say in the interview is actually what's happening within the team, within that company. Company. But also when you, you have a truly diverse team of people that you're going into, you already know there's a certain level of psychological safety.

Janice B. Gordon [00:31:02]:
Not when you've got one pointless. When you've got one, you haven't got critical mass. But when you have a good kind of 40, 50, 60% of diverse people in the team you have built into that psychological safety, otherwise they wouldn't stay. So you kind of need to look for that. I often say to CEOs, and when you recruit a diverse sales leader, they will naturally be protective of the people because they understand what it's like, and they will naturally attract diversity into their team without having to try too hard. So if you really want to make a difference in the culture and the team, you need to develop and recruit senior leaders that are diverse, and that's going to quickly change the culture in your environment. The other thing to note is I did a keynote with Mary Shea in the Women in Sales conference that when she was out reach. And one thing that we talked about was that you need the power of three.

Janice B. Gordon [00:32:11]:
The power of three, whether it's on the board, in the leadership team, in the team that you're in. Because when you have one diverse person that they have a lone voice, no one listens to them. There's no critical mass. When you have two, naturally, in our culture as humans, we go for divide and rule. When you have three, that's when the power of three is like having six or 10. It means then you can disagree within those three people, but you've got enough of a critical voice in order to start changing things. So you need to make sure if you're going into an environment and you're the only, you know that you've got an uphill struggle. So you need to look for three.

Janice B. Gordon [00:32:56]:
The power of three is really important. Important.

Brandi Starr [00:33:00]:
And I think you hit on a really good point that I hadn't thought about, which is when you recruit diverse talent in leadership, the change in the culture just naturally happens. Because I know when I initially asked the question, where my brain was going was, what sort of tips or things that can people do to start to shift that culture? And the answer is really not that we need to come up with these tactics and plans to change the culture, but just by adding in the diversity, the culture will shift naturally. And I do really like that rule of three, because, you know, it is hard when you are the only. And it takes a very strong person, strong voice to be able to speak up and advocate when you know that you may not have support. And then I have been in situations where when it is you plus one, it is seen as like, oh, you guys are teaming up. Like, it. It's just a you problem. But that having that third person, that dynamic really does make it like, oh, maybe we should pay attention to this.

Brandi Starr [00:34:17]:
I think the other Thing that I would look at because for organizations that don't have diversity today, it will take some time in that if you've got people in the roles and they're doing the job, you can't just be like, oh, we need some diversity. We gotta let go of y'all so we can, you know, get more people. And so there may be situations where a company is moving in the right direction and not quite there yet. And I think the opportunity there is not only look for where diversity exists, but also look for allies. Because I have seen that in my career where I may have been the only minority, but I did have the three because I knew that I had at least two allies who valued diversity, valued inclusive incl. You know, being inclusive, making people feel comfortable so that they can be the. Their best self at work, having psychological safety. And although they were, you know, in all the examples I'm thinking up they were middle aged white men.

Brandi Starr [00:35:26]:
So the, you know, the total majority, they were very much allies and advocates in that also helped. And I do think that having those people also helped that as there were turnover, as there was turnover and new positions opened, that it did help to bring in more diversity because they were a part of that hiring process.

Janice B. Gordon [00:35:51]:
I think that's an excellent point, Brandy, but you know, it's also both. And so we want the power three and allies are absolutely critical, Absolutely critical, but it should be both. You know, that's what we want. We want both. And yeah, I think it's an excellent point and you know, it's quite interesting that yeah, it's going to take time. You can't kind of remove those people from their existing roles. Funny if it's, it's a woman, you're able to do that. But anyway, I wasn't going to go there.

Janice B. Gordon [00:36:29]:
So then I would want to know what is the timeline on this? If we're going for the power of three, what is. I would want a timeline commitment on that because you might have a chair of an organization that, you know, saying the right thing, but actually you want to make him accountable to make those changes, you know, so within the next year or two. And also what about how you recruiting for those people going forward? Are you using the same old tired recruitment methods or are you really reaching out to a wider community? So when you are ready to hire, people already know that you're in the diversity game. What does that list look like? Harvard Business Review. They do great work, but this one was around if you have 50% of people in your pool, recruitment pool you're more likely to recruit a diverse person. But if you only have, you know, one, two or three in a pool of 10, so you've got to have 50%, but you're never going to get 50% unless you're already reaching out to the community. So where are you net? Where is that the, you know, the leadership team networking now, how are they inviting people into discussion around the table? What are they doing now? Do not wait until you're ready to recruit because you're not going to get those people applying.

Brandi Starr [00:37:56]:
It's a great point. And talking about our challenges is just the first step. And if nothing changes, nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework, but here at revenue rehab we like to flip that on his head and ask you to give us some homework. So for those listening who recognize that diversity in their sales function is a challenge and that they want to do better, what's that one thing? What's the first step? What actions should they take to move in the right direction?

Janice B. Gordon [00:38:31]:
So the first thing that they should do is do the numbers. Look around who's on the senior management team. And I often ask sales leaders the question. I'm not interested in the answer, to tell you the truth. But just by agitating a little, by asking that question, if it's a little uncomfortable to answer, it's enough for them to become. You're then creating the awareness for them that I'm looking at that and probably other people are as well. So you don't want to ever make anyone feel really uncomfortable. But what you do want to do is gently agitate.

Janice B. Gordon [00:39:10]:
So you know, what is the makeup of your senior management team? What's the makeup of the board? And you know, I often get the answer. Well, we've got, you know, diversity in non executive roles and well, yeah, but look at who is on the board. Who are the decision makers on the board? That's what I'm asking. What is the diversity there? And literally it's just enough for them to go back and ask the question in the teams. So I would like you to ask that question of just look one or two steps above and just whenever there's an opportunity, just ask the question.

Brandi Starr [00:39:53]:
I love that. And that is a great easy step for everyone to take. And I definitely feel it is going to leave some folks feeling a little uncomfortable. But I think that uncomfortable places where change happens. And so yeah, recognizing where you are doing a great job and where you know your hashtag failing. And so that's where you can can start to do better. Well Janice, I have enjoyed our discussion, but that's our time for today. But before we go, I definitely do the shameless plug for scale your sales and let people know how they can stay connected with you.

Janice B. Gordon [00:40:39]:
Oh, thank you for this opportunity, Brandy. I've really enjoyed our conversation. We're going to continue with this on Scale yourselves podcast. So my plug would be Please do subscribe to Scale yourselves a podcast. It's on my YouTube channel and any other podcast channel. I have like this great guests and great discussions around revenue growth and how we're modernizing our not only our mindset but our operations to be more customer relevant and customer centric. So join me there and LinkedIn. Janice, don't forget my b Janice B.

Janice B. Gordon [00:41:21]:
Gordon on on LinkedIn. Please do say that you saw me here on Revenue Rehab and you enjoyed the the conversation and ask me anything. I'm always willing to support my audience of people.

Brandi Starr [00:41:37]:
Well, awesome. So wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, check the show notes. We will make sure to link to Janice B. Gordon on LinkedIn as well as the scale your sales podcast. Well, Janice, thanks again for joining me. I have truly, truly, truly enjoyed the discussion. Thank you and thanks everyone for joining us. I can't believe we're at the end.

Brandi Starr [00:42:02]:
Until next time, bye Bye.