Leadership at the Helm: CEOs' Role in Unifying Revenue Teams

Brandi Starr [00:00:34]:
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host, Brandy Star and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Alice Hyman as chief sales energizer. Alice is internationally known for her expertise in elevating sales to increase valuation for B2B companies that have exceptional growth potential. Her passion is spending her time strategizing with CEOs, company leaders and their sales leadership to build the strategies that find new business and grow existing accounts. Her clients love her spirit and the way she energizes their sales organization. Alice is the host of the popular podcast sales talk for CEOs and she also dedicates time to local entrepreneurs by teaching at the University of Nevada in the entrepreneurship minor, which she help inspired. Alice, welcome to Revenue Rehab.

Brandi Starr [00:01:36]:
Your session begins now.

Alice Heiman [00:01:39]:
Well, thank you, Brandi. I've been listening to your podcasts and really enjoy them and I appreciate you having me on the show today.

Brandi Starr [00:01:47]:
Awesome. Well, I am excited, excited to have you. And before we dive into our topic, I want to break the ice with a little woosa moment that I call buzzword banishment. So tell me, what overused word would you like to get rid of forever?

Alice Heiman [00:02:03]:
Yeah, I would like to get rid of the word quota in sales. And I know that's going to be rather controversial because most businesses derive or they think they're driving their revenue through quota attainment. But because we hear so much about salespeople not attaining their quota and a lot of issues around quota, I would like to banish it because close dates come from customers, not quotas.

Brandi Starr [00:02:36]:
This is very, very true. And I do agree. It's one of those things that, you know, sales has evolved so, so much, but the use of quotas for the most part hasn't really changed. And so it does seem like there, you know, could be some, some different ways that we could track and measure and try to incent our salespeople.

Alice Heiman [00:03:02]:
Absolutely.

Brandi Starr [00:03:03]:
So at least for this discussion, I can promise that I will put quota in the box and throw it away. And so now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to Revenue Rehab today?

Alice Heiman [00:03:17]:
Well, I wanted to talk about the role of CRO Chief Revenue Officer, but more broadly, the role of all the Leaders in the go to market motion.

Brandi Starr [00:03:32]:
Okay, I was gonna say this is definitely a hot topic for me and I've got some strong opinions on it, so looking forward to hearing yours. And I believe in setting intentions. It gives us focus, it gives us purpose, and most important, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our discussion today. So what would you like people to take away from the conversation?

Alice Heiman [00:03:58]:
I would like them to think about the roles they currently have at the leadership level that impact the customer and therefore impact sales and determine if each of those roles is doing what it's meant to.

Brandi Starr [00:04:17]:
That is a good one and I think that's a great place to start because it is highly debated in terms of what those roles are meant to do. And so let me start by just let's level set with your perspective. And what do you feel are the key roles for go to market leadership? And you know, what are they supposed to do?

Alice Heiman [00:04:45]:
Well, it's interesting because I've been doing this a long, long time, so I've watched the roles evolve. Right. And we have a lot of roles at the C level now that we never had when I was younger. Right. So typically you'd have a CEO, a Chief Executive Officer, a cfo, a Chief Financial Officer, also sometimes a chro, a Chief of HR Officer, Human Resources and a coo, which was the Chief Operating Officer. But then it came to be that people in marketing wanted a seat at the table because they felt their role was just as important. And prior to there being CMOs chief marketing officers, there were VPs of marketing. So they got bumped up to have a seat at the table.

Alice Heiman [00:05:38]:
Well then sales said, well, why not sales? Why shouldn't sales have a seat at the table? Right. And so now we're looking at a Chief Sales officer. So we have another C level executive. Right. And then it became why not have a chief revenue officer? Because sales and marketing are so siloed and not working together. We need somebody who's going to be on top of that, who's going to look over all the revenue. And in most cases, a chief revenue officer oversees sales, marketing and customer success and sometimes product as well. And so it's very interesting to have watched this evolve.

Alice Heiman [00:06:24]:
But I think it really depends what size organization you have and what really needs to be done. And I think in smaller organizations it's just simply title inflation. Brandy. I don't think it's really appropriate in a small organization, let's say under 100 million, to have all these extra C level people. It doesn't mean they can't have a say and they can't be part of the strategy. Right. Or part of the plan. But when you talk about C level, really when the C level gets together, they need to take off their individual hats of their departments and look over the well being of the entire company.

Alice Heiman [00:07:06]:
Is that really what your cmo, your CSO or your CRO are doing? Or even now we have chief customer officers too. I forgot about that. Ccos. Right. So it's very interesting. So what's expected, I think at the leadership level when you're a C level is something entirely different than when you're a vp because you really need to be looking out for the financial health of the entire company, not just your department. So I think that most C level people in smaller companies are inflated titles because they don't even have the expertise, they don't have that finance background or that education in finance to really understand how to look at that. So it's interesting to me.

Alice Heiman [00:07:55]:
But I think what's most important, Brandy, is that we have someone leading the charge for each department that also knows how to align and integrate. Right. If they can't do those things, we just remain in silos. And I think that's what the Chief Revenue officer was really kind of invented to do. Right. This position was to get these people aligned and integrating. Because with CMO and CCO and CSO they were still all operating in their own place. Right.

Alice Heiman [00:08:30]:
And kind of operating in their silo and not integrating enough.

Brandi Starr [00:08:35]:
I agree wholeheartedly. And for, you know, anybody that doesn't know, like over my shoulder, up this shoulder, we wrote the book on just that in that, that same point of. We do feel that the go to market team does need a seat at the C suite table to have that perspective, you know, when that, when the C suite gets together, but that it should not be all of these different positions. And I know, I mean it is a controversial opinion because there are so many people who have attained that level that this mentality would mean those roles no longer exist. But I do see it happen over and over and over where you have a CMO and you know, whether it's a CSO or you know, a CRO who only owns sales, they don't see eye to eye and they have different priorities. So now we're at the C level creating competition or discord board when we are all supposed to be, you know, moving the ship in the right direction. And so I, you know, and there's a lot of debate around if CRO is the right title or if it should be something else. And you know, from my perspective, it's less about the title and more about having that single individual that represents the whole go to market motion at that sea level.

Brandi Starr [00:10:04]:
And then you do have VP SVP of those different functions who are looking to look out for the function. So I love you're speaking my language.

Alice Heiman [00:10:16]:
Yeah. And I'll tell you, I really think it does depend on the size of the company. Right. Because the larger you get and into the Fortune 500, it's a whole different ballgame. But look, I focus on companies that have a business to business complex sale mostly in the tech arena, but some other as well. And they're under $100 million, which is most of the companies in the world. Right. I mean that makes up most of the companies in the world.

Alice Heiman [00:10:39]:
So when you think about what should they be doing to really have a great go to market motion, to really give customers an exceptional experience. Right. And to really make sure their sales is growing the way they need it to, they have to have humans, whatever their titles are, who sit around and work together on that. It's not separated. And I can give you a perfect example, Brandy, from a client of mine. We had all of the marketing under sales for a time, right. So the leader of sales was also leading marketing and they were doing a great job of feeding leads and doing the trade shows and making sure the trade shows generated good leads and doing demand gen and all of those things. But it was getting to be too much for one person.

Alice Heiman [00:11:31]:
And so they thought, okay, well let's hire a head of marketing. So we'll have this head of sales, we'll take some stuff off her plate and we'll, you know, get the marketing over to the head of marketing. Right. Well, the entire year that that was happening, leads kept dropping. There was no demand gen, the trade shows weren't generating as many leads. What happened? Well, they separated and there was no leadership at the top saying just because there's two people doing this job now doesn't mean you don't align and integrate. But the new person of course wanted to put a stake in the ground. I'm the marketing leader, I'm going to do it my way.

Alice Heiman [00:12:11]:
I'm going to show you, I'm going to, you know, do these things. Right. And it just didn't support sales. They weren't talking, discussing, working together, thinking about the customer. So it's something that we have to keep in mind. So always, whatever leadership head of, let's just Call it head of head of sales, head of marketing, head of customer success, head of customer support. Right. These head ofs have to keep the customer in mind.

Alice Heiman [00:12:43]:
They have to keep in mind what can they do to make it easier to be their customer and harder to be their competitor. And if they keep that in mind, they're going to have to work together because they, the marketing people need to know what the salespeople are hearing from the customer directly. The salespeople need to know what customer success is hearing from the current customer so they can move that into gathering new customers. Right. So there has to be that communication, there has to be that forward direction that goes together, that vision that goes together. And really the CEO is the person who supplies that. Right. Here's our direction, here's our vision.

Alice Heiman [00:13:22]:
This is the strategy. The C Suite has developed this strategy. Here's the plan for meeting that strategy. And then those head ofs work together on a weekly basis. Right. To make sure they execute that plan and the customer wins.

Brandi Starr [00:13:40]:
Yeah. And there's two key things that I take away from that or thoughts that I've had from that. Number one, I think some of that, that siloedness happens because I have seen that happen multiple times where it's one job until a point where you recognize there's too much and then it gets split and then it goes from being very unified and integrated to being siloed. And quite often, often I think that happens because number one, in the hiring process, it is not the expectation of that level of cohesiveness and collaboration is not set as an expectation.

Alice Heiman [00:14:19]:
Yes.

Brandi Starr [00:14:19]:
And then two, the measurement of how both leaders are measured don't actually align in a way that requires that collaboration and integration. And it sounds like from the nodding that, that you've seen the same thing. Is that true?

Alice Heiman [00:14:36]:
I have seen the same thing and I have seen for many, many years that marketing leaders were not measured on an increase in revenue. And it's something that they rebelled against for a long time. But now it's much more common to have the revenue leader having, sorry, having the marketing leader and the sales leader or the revenue leader, if that's the case, having one goal. Right. And that's why again, the move towards CRO is bring it all under one roof. There's one goal. We're one team hitting that goal, not separate goals like your goal. Marketing isn't more likes, more followers, more engagement, although those may be indicators that you're looking at.

Alice Heiman [00:15:18]:
Your goal is for revenue to increase by X percent. That's everyone's goal. And we all work together to attain that because there's too much blaming going on. Oh, we gave you all these leads, but your salespeople didn't want them. Right. Because they weren't really leads. They were. Somebody downloaded an ebook and they didn't expect or want a call from us.

Alice Heiman [00:15:41]:
So yeah, we didn't. That's yours to nurture, marketing. Keep nurturing it until somebody raises their hand and says, I want to talk to a salesperson, then tell me that's a lead. Right. So it's been that way for many years. And where we see these leaders, customer success, sales and marketing, sitting together weekly and talking through what's happening and everybody understanding what is going on in sales, what is going on in marketing, what is happening with customer success. It just has to be real fluid and lots of conversations around it so we can then strategize. Because really the leaders should be at that more strategic level.

Alice Heiman [00:16:24]:
They collect data each week and they make decisions with that data on what should happen next. Following the big strategy. But then there's always some smaller strategies that come into play when we get new data and then making plans. Right. To make sure that strategy works until we see that it doesn't. Then sometimes we have to change the strategy. But. But that can't happen if we're in our little silos because it's about the customer.

Alice Heiman [00:16:49]:
And that's one, not three or four or however many. Right. It's one the customer. And all of you have to move into that point of the customer. So you've got to have those discussions.

Brandi Starr [00:17:03]:
Yeah. And you know that you came back to what I was going to say was my second point around that feedback loop and consistency, consistent communication. I love that you've repeatedly referred to weekly in that. It's not like one meeting that we have quarterly to share results. I think the analogy that I use, I think back to when I was married, premarital counseling, where they talked about always approaching it not as him versus you, but the two of you against the problem. And I think that's what becomes very difficult because each department is looking at that data, or at least they should be. And so often it is hard to really look at where is something breaking down. Like, I talk a lot about the micro conversions that go along the process.

Brandi Starr [00:17:55]:
That data is going to tell you where are things breaking down. And if it is all of us against the problem, then, you know, it's not like if your piece is the piece that's breaking down. It doesn't mean that you're bad at your job or that you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. It just means that's the part that's not working. And we collectively need to lean in and figure that out. And so I love that you talk a lot about that feedback loop. And I see so many companies do not prioritize those kinds of conversations in making it very productive and consistent of looking at what's happening. How have you seen companies do this effectively in the work that you've done?

Alice Heiman [00:18:41]:
Yeah, so it's not easy, you know, I mean, I think that the goal of these leaders, right, Is to take a look and see where we intersect with the customer every time we touch the customer. From hello to I'm your loyal customer. Right. Which is beyond the clothes. Right. So my friend Jaco Van Der Kooy always talks about the bow tie, a pipeline. It's not just a little pipe. I call it a funnel.

Alice Heiman [00:19:04]:
You know, you've got a funnel on both ends. It's more of a bow tie. We bring them in, you know, move them towards a close, close them and then the work really starts from there. Right. The onboarding and all of the great things we do to engage them and get user adoption and you know, depending on what you're selling, like all those things, can they use what you sold them successfully so that they will buy more and they will buy other and they will refer and recommend. Right? So if everybody's looking at that together, right? Everybody in the go to market world and including the CEO, right. All those head ofs, if they're looking at that as a whole, and that's your customer. And so when we work together on that, where do we touch the customer? What does that look like? And everybody talks about, wow, there's a gap here.

Alice Heiman [00:19:59]:
How do we fix that gap? It's not, oh, that's your problem. Sales, right. Everybody addresses the gap when the gap is shown. That's where it works because we get all those good brains, somebody who looks at it from a marketing point of view, a customer success point of view and a sales point of view trying to fix the gap that we found. And if we're reviewing those gaps frequently or actually reviewing those touch points frequently, that's how we find the gaps. Right. So the data should tell us, oh my gosh, it's taking three weeks for a customer to get a proposal that's too long. That's a gap.

Alice Heiman [00:20:39]:
All right, let's all put our brains around how do we close that gap? Turns out it's stuck in legal. All right, let's put our brains around that. How do we close that gap? Right? So if everyone's invested in making it better for the customer, making it easier to be the customer, and they're talking together, that's where I see it working. And not everybody agrees all the time, but you come up with a solution that addresses the customer's need, not our internal needs. I mean, it's going to have to address both, but in the end, it has to address the customer need.

Brandi Starr [00:21:13]:
Yeah, I definitely agree there. And what that makes me think of is there's a lot of organizations where this is broken. Like, the silos are thick. The, you know, everybody talks about putting the customer at the center of things, but that's not what's really happening in practice. And so where you've seen leaders, so this, you know, comes back to what you, you know, initially talked about in having those go to market leaders and what those roles are. How do those various leaders help to remove those silos and get everybody marching in the same direction? Like, where does that responsibility live? How have you seen that shift Happen?

Alice Heiman [00:22:02]:
That's the CEO's responsibility. Right? The CEO has to address these leaders and make sure they understand what the strategy is and what the plan is to reach it and that they work together on that plan. But let me give you an example. So if we're leaning on quota, right? As our. We have a strategy to do these things to be this in the marketplace, right? And we have this number that we want to hit, and we're leaning. Leaning on quota, okay? So we take a look at what's happening, and we see salespeople aren't hitting their quota. Whose problem is that? Oh, that must be the salespeople. No, it must be the sales manager.

Alice Heiman [00:22:44]:
Yes, partially. Right. But we have to examine if you're going to use a quota system, right. That does not support the customer. Because like I said earlier, close dates come from customers, not quotas. So if you are leaning on that as a point, a part of your plan for your strategy, it's not going to work because you're saying, oh, hit this quota. No matter what the customer wants, hit this quota, push them. Or worse yet, oh, it's the end of the quarter, we've got to get deals closed.

Alice Heiman [00:23:23]:
Let's lower the price and see if we can get any more deals across the line. I hate that. And so do your customers. Right? So if you're saying quota is the way we're going to do this, that automatically blows it up because it's not focused on the customer at all. So if you back into it as a team and you say, here are the goals we think are reasonable because we've done the research in the marketplace, so that's marketing's job, right? Go do this research and bring it back to us so we can make good decisions about what our monthly flow is going to look like. And call the flow if you want, call it whatever you want. CEOs need to know because they, their C team needs to pay the bills. They got to know when's the money coming, right? That's why we have quota systems.

Alice Heiman [00:24:08]:
They're trying to say, but I need this money by this date because otherwise we can't pay our bills and our investors won't be happy because we don't have X amount of growth. Not customer focused at all. Not saying you don't need to pay your bills, not saying you don't need to make your investors happy, but how about a different way? So if we all work together, we get the research done and we look at it together and we say, here's what we can do in the marketplace and here's how we're going to do it. Because when we stop at, okay, we need 10% growth. Why? Because we have, you know, 50% of the customer base right now, and we want 10% more of it. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to go for that. Great.

Alice Heiman [00:24:49]:
How are you going to do that? That is not a strategy, right? It's not a plan. I mean, it might be a strategy, but it's not a plan. So if sales, marketing, customer success work together, right? Because now we're saying, we looked at the whole marketplace, our existing customers, and the ones that we can still get, we can get this much growth from our existing customers, we believe this because here's the evidence and here's how we will do it. Marketing plays a role. Sales plays a role. Customer success plays a role. CEO may play a role. Other senior executives, here's the part of the market we don't have yet that we want to go get.

Alice Heiman [00:25:28]:
Here's how we're going to do it. Again, all those key departments play a role in going to get that. Marketing plays their role. Customer success has a role to play. Sales has a role to play. Senior executives have a role to play, right? When we look at it that way, and then we say, based on this, the monthly flow can look like this, right? And then when we train salespeople really well to Talk to their customers and understand their needs and their implementation dates and when they need things to go live, when they need results by, we can back into that and get our close dates and understand the flow of cash. But everybody has to be involved to do that.

Brandi Starr [00:26:16]:
Yeah. And I think that, you know, takes us back to our initial point of where we started with the importance of all the go to market leaders understanding what their role is and then determining the actions and how we move forward.

Alice Heiman [00:26:35]:
And really examining those like, what are you doing right now today? Does that serve the customer right and does it help this team work together, align and integrate?

Brandi Starr [00:26:50]:
And so I wanna, I wanna take it in a little bit of a different direction and going back to what we talked about, about having that single C suite representing all of go to market. And when we put out our book, when I've talked about this before, the big pushback that I get is that it is giving such a ceiling for go to market leaders in that right now we have all these leaders who are growing in their careers up these individual paths and that if we're saying only, you know, one of those paths makes it to the C suite, then we now have, you know, a fourth, a fifth of the C suite positions available. That is where I see a lot of the pushback. It's like from a rationale perspective, people do see the need for a single leader and that cohesiveness and you know, one person setting goals, one person focused on this and taking that into the C suite conversations. But then the other side of the coin is the what about me? The per, you know, the direct impact to career trajectory and opportunity for go to market leaders if we move in that direction. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that piece.

Alice Heiman [00:28:16]:
So maybe title isn't the right thing. Like maybe we're aspiring for the wrong thing, right? So maybe we should take title out of the equation. But I will say this. Moving up to these C suite roles in marketing, sales or customer success is for bigger companies. If you want to work in the world of a smaller company, then you want to be head of whatever that title is, right? And do your very best and be able to earn at your highest level. The title should not necessarily indicate how much impact you can have or how much you can earn. That happens to be the way our corporate America works. But maybe that's what has to be looked at.

Alice Heiman [00:28:56]:
I think that if the CEO is really willing to play the role of orchestrator, so what a CRO would be doing, then you can have these separate C level people reporting in. Right. But you've got your ops over here and your finance over here kind of doing their thing. Right. And you've got your go to market over here. Somebody has to bring those C level go to market leaders together. So if you're going to have it where they do have a C level title, then the CEO really has to be the one. And if the CEO isn't willing to do that, then I don't recommend that structure.

Alice Heiman [00:29:36]:
They should have a CRO chief Revenue Officer who understands sales, marketing and customer success and has that finance background. Right. Gives their overall revenue and can work with everyone else in the organization. Right. That and there would be a head of marketing and ahead of sales and ahead of customer success that reports that person that are not on the C level. So it really depends what the CEO wants to do. And I get it, you want a career trajectory, but maybe from a smaller company, being a VP or head of moves you up into a larger company to do that same role and then be able to move into a C level role. It's not going to happen in these smaller companies.

Alice Heiman [00:30:22]:
It shouldn't.

Brandi Starr [00:30:24]:
I was going to say really interesting perspective because I am seeing, I have talked to CMOs of small companies where if you look at what they're doing on a day to day basis, their work is actually more that of a director or an individual contributor.

Alice Heiman [00:30:44]:
Exactly. And that's what I'm saying. It's title inflation. A CMO should be focused on strategy. They should not be doing day to day work. So it's title inflation.

Brandi Starr [00:30:55]:
Yeah. And I, I do think, especially in a lot of the, I think it happens a lot in like PE backed companies. Like that seems to be a way that they attract talent to want to do the amount of work in those startups. And, and so not all PE backed companies, but those, you know, those, those earlier stage startups is you've got that one marketer and it becomes worth it for them because it gives that type, you know, that inflated title so that as they, they move on, you know, not universal across the board, but definitely something I have seen.

Alice Heiman [00:31:32]:
Yeah, the titles make it tricky when we're hiring. For sure.

Brandi Starr [00:31:36]:
Yes. Yeah.

Alice Heiman [00:31:37]:
You know, what were you actually doing in that job with that title?

Brandi Starr [00:31:42]:
Yeah, because I do, I look at myself, you know, as coo, but I know if I were to go to a large company, I'd be more of a VP just by nature of the size of the organization. I would not try to like make the leap from coo here to coo at a Fortune 500 like it just that's not the way that it works. And I think there is a bit of self awareness there as well in that company size and structure does play a key role in what the opportunities are. And UP doesn't have to be title up can be moving to larger organizations where you have greater impact, greater responsibility, all those sorts of things as well, which also comes with, you know, greater income. Well, Alice, talking about our challenges is just the first step. And nothing changes if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework, but here at Revenue Rehab, we like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. And so for those listening who what you have said has resonated with them, what's that one thing? What would be the next step action item you would recommend that they take?

Alice Heiman [00:33:05]:
Well, if I was the CEO, I would want to take a look at my head of whatever their title is and ask myself, how are they making it easier to be our customer and harder to be our competitor? And if I can't figure out how they're making it easier to be our customer, they're certainly not making it harder to be our competitor. Right. So I just want to take a look at this and see what are they doing. I'd also want to look to see are they working together or are they working in silos. And then I have a job to do, right. I have to figure out how to get them doing what we need them to do, which is being focused on the customer, following the strategy, building a plan to support that strategy, executing it, getting the data, looking at that data, and making the changes that are needed. Right. Based on that.

Alice Heiman [00:33:52]:
So that's the first thing I do. If I was a CEO, if I was one of these other C level titles and I saw that there was no alignment and no working together going on. Right. If the alignment's not there, then I would go talk to the CEO and say, hey, we're doing our customers a disservice. I have some ideas I'd like to talk about with the team. So, you know, take that or go talk with your team before you go to your CEO and say, hey, you know, head of, I can see some gaps here where we could work better together to serve our customer. Let's brainstorm and bring some ideas to our CEO of what we can do. So first you just have to kind of see what is it and where are the gaps and can we close those gaps? Right.

Alice Heiman [00:34:42]:
Don't worry about how yet just take a look at what you're doing and how it serves the customer and where you could improve and then just start to brainstorm some ideas that you can bring forward and work together to make those improvements.

Brandi Starr [00:34:59]:
Yeah, I really like taking the initiative to be the one to start collaboration as a great action item because so often it is a, like, hesitation to like, lean in and be the one for fear of taking on some responsibility that, you know, you weren't expecting. But, you know, and especially those that lead marketing, we, we feel that the head of marketing generally is so involved in all of the areas of go to market and is often best positioned to be the one to bring, you know, that cohesiveness to break down the silos. I love how you said to align and integrate. Quite often the head of marketing is the one that is, you know, best positioned to do that and even best position to go have that conversation with the CEO.

Alice Heiman [00:35:57]:
Yeah, well, people do have sometimes, you know, there's a struggle. Maybe it's hard to work with some people. Maybe people are like really staking out their territory and don't want to lose any ground and they think somehow they're going to lose some ground by working together. I'm never really clear on what it is, but, you know, humans being humans, right? We have these ideas in our head and sometimes those ideas are not serving us and they're certainly not serving the customer. So I think if you can start the conversation in a way that allows everyone to feel comfortable and open up enough to share, that's going to be amazing and you can really start, let the ideas flowing. But if people come kind of with, oh, you're trying to take something from me, or oh, you're trying to be in control, or, you know, they have some preconceived notion or some angst or whatever they're bringing to the table, it's not going to work. So we have to start this in a way where it's just exploratory. I'm just curious, are we serving our customers as best we could? Why don't we lay that out and look and see if we can find some gaps? Oh, we have.

Alice Heiman [00:37:01]:
Okay. Now let's talk about how could we close those gaps? What could we do? Right. And I think that will serve everyone.

Brandi Starr [00:37:10]:
I love it. Well, Alice, I have truly enjoyed our discussion, but that's our time for today. But before we go tell our audience, how can they connect with you and definitely give us a shameless plug for sales talk for CEOs would love to know more about podcasts.

Alice Heiman [00:37:29]:
Well, thank you. Well, first of all, I'd love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn, but you have to say that you heard me here on Revenue Rehab so that I know how you found me and then I will be sure to connect with you. And I do have a podcast. It's called sales talk for CEOs and it is for CEOs and all of you who support CEOs. So I talk to CEOs who are founders about how they started their business and how they grew their sales and then what's happening next to grow their business. And then I also talked to some experts who give really great advice to CEOs on how to grow sales as well.

Brandi Starr [00:38:10]:
Awesome. Well, we will make sure to link to your LinkedIn and your podcast in the show notes. So wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, check the show notes to connect with Alice. Alice, again, thank you so much for joining me today. I have enjoyed this discussion and I love challenging the way that people are doing things today so that we can all be better and more customer centric.

Alice Heiman [00:38:37]:
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Brandi Starr [00:38:39]:
Awesome. Well, thanks everyone for joining us. I hope that you have enjoyed my conversation with Alice. I can't believe we're at the end. Until next time, bye. Bye.