Marketing for Every Stage: Strategies for Pre-Launch, High Growth, and Mature Companies

Intro VO  00:06

Welcome to revenue rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:34

Hello, hello hello and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host Brandi star and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Casey Calvin, a chief marketing officer for Premier Casey is responsible for creating a bold brand and delivering memorable customer experiences that lead to growth for the company. Casey joined the company in 2013. And during her tenure, she has built an innovative agile and strategic marketing team that differentiates and elevates premiers commercial presence. Casey is a digital health and marketing thought leader, certifying premiers marketing team in the modern principles of agile marketing. She serves as an advisor for health tech startups and a mentor for young professional women seeking to build their personal brands. In 2022, Casey was named a top 50 women leaders in technology by women we admire. Additionally, she is a member of the Young Leaders Council for PBS Charlotte, the Charlotte Chapter of the American Marketing Association, and professional women in health care. Welcome to revenue rehab, KC your session begins now.

Kaycee Kalpin  01:54

Awesome. Thank you, Brandi, I'm so excited to be here. Can you narrate my life please?

Brandi Starr  02:01

As in say, well, with a bio like that, it's not too difficult. I can tell we have some very similar passions and you know, supporting young women who are coming up in leadership and building their brands in a positive way. Those are things that I am also passionate about. So really, really excited to talk to you.

Kaycee Kalpin  02:24

Awesome. Same here. Yes, I saw that we had those things in similar to so in common as well. So we're gonna have a great time.

Brandi Starr  02:31

Awesome. And I know we've got a hot topic today. But before we jump into that, I like to break the ice with a little Woosah moment that I call buzzword. banishment. So tell me what overused buzzword would you like to get rid of forever?

Kaycee Kalpin  02:50

You know, I was going to say chat GPT. But I won't say chat GPT GPT. Okay. But you know, it will transform the way that our we work and all the things. But I, you know, I won't I won't necessarily go there. I've got to say today, my buzzword is attribution.

Brandi Starr  03:11

Yes, that is that is a common one. I think attribution has been banned a few times. Why is it that you don't like attribution?

Kaycee Kalpin  03:25

Is there anything worse for a marketing and sales team and the alignment of a marketing and sales team than claiming who has credit?

Brandi Starr  03:35

Yeah, that, you know, it's so funny, because, you know, I've been in marketing for a long, long time. And it I think about when I first started, you know, 23 ish years ago, and there was no way to measure anything. So, you know, it was just kind of like you did what you did, and you hope for the best and we've come a long way since then in many positive ways, but it has created this territorial miss, who claims this as if we're not all working towards the same goal and talking to the same people,

Kaycee Kalpin  04:17

I could not agree more and I think that's a will be a common thread because it's top of mine. So it'll be common thread for our country for our conversation, but I just, you know, really feel like we need to start breaking down some barriers and friction points between marketing and sales. And I'm working incredibly hard on my side to do that, and this whole who's got credit for what and what percentage and, you know, is it influence or is it is it origination this whole thing just has me tripping?

Brandi Starr  04:51

Yeah, I am with you. And for those that are listening, after you finish listening to my conversation with Casey, I encourage you to jump back to Episode 52, where Andrew bolus and I tackled this topic where he talks about how bad software based attribution is and how it doesn't really accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. Because at the end of the day, attribution really is about figuring out what works so that you can do more of that, and do less of the things that aren't working. And somehow it became this, this battle. But we will get stuck there. Everybody can go back later and listen to episode 52, where we tackle that, but at least for this conversation, we're going to put attribution in the box, and you know, lock it up on the shelf, and we won't touch it here.

Kaycee Kalpin  05:41

Love it. Yes. For once for 30 minutes, I can not talk about attribution.

Brandi Starr  05:47

Yes. So now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to revenue rehab today?

Kaycee Kalpin  05:55

Well, I was very excited to be invited. And I'm incredibly eager to get to know you more and your experience and insights. But I think what what really brings me here, what is top of mind for me is and particularly from marketing to every stage of the funnel, which I know we're going to talk about today is this idea of metrics and measuring, measuring your marketing your Omni channel marketing to every stage of the funnel, and how you can you can address in what metrics matter and how you can really address movement in the most minimum viable way. Meaning, I don't want to have 15 touches at the top of the funnel, if I don't need 15 touches at the top.

Brandi Starr  06:44

I love it. And you know, it's funny, like you're speaking my language with metrics that matter. Because, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, what we're measuring is what we focus on, or I always say what gets measured gets done. But before I dive in deeper there, I believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, it gives us purpose and most important, it gives her audience an understanding of what they should expect from our conversation today. So help me to understand what is your best hope for our talk, what is your intention?

Kaycee Kalpin  07:17

I love a book end. So let's talk about now and let's talk about it in the end. But I am hoping that you and I can connect on and our audience can connect to this idea of reconnection with the customer. I think we've kind of lost ourselves as marketers, and all of this digital and all of the metrics and the dare I say the a word. And conversion and handoffs and when things go, and we're not marketing to robots, we're marketing to people, and really reconnecting with the customer is such a key objective of mine. Awesome session for today.

Brandi Starr  08:02

Perfect. So thinking about that, that gives me a good place to start. In first talking about kind of the different stages of companies, if I think about, you know, I talked to a lot of CMOS that are in, you know, various stage of the startup game. And it seems like those small companies tend to have their finger on the pulse when it comes to, you know, customers and connecting with customers and really building the products and the marketing and the everything is focused around the customer. As you grow into mid market and larger companies, it seems like the more people involved, the further we get away from the customer. And, you know, it's like, small marketers have to be super scrappy, don't have a lot of resources. If I think about my time in enterprise marketing, like what my budgets were, then I'm like, it was like the sky's the limit to a certain degree. But there's a lot of missing of the market. And so I'd like to start there in just your thoughts around, where do we lose the connection to the isomer? Like, how do we get there?

Kaycee Kalpin  09:16

I love that as a starting point. And you're right at at every stage a company is in or you know, wherever the company is in their maturation, or the product is in terms of its maturity curve. It's different. And I find that it's even different for enterprise level marketers that have small budgets, right? They're going to be more efficient with the dollar. I think we start losing. We really start losing connectivity that to the customer when we start when we stop map being when we stop mapping a buyer journey. And I always really challenge the marketers that I work with to make sure you know to either the buyer or the buying committee, because oftentimes decisions are made by committee. So incredibly well that you know, the friction points in each stage of their journey. You know, what happens is we do that at a Product Level In small startup companies. And we're often your marketers, your salesperson is your customer success person, right? And they're closer to the company. As you expand these teams, they get farther and farther away from the actual customer. And so, you know, I personally like to say spend 25% of your time with your customer, you will find marketers on enterprise marketing teams that spend zero time with their customers, right, you know, maybe a user conference here, maybe a webinar preparation there. But I think the more honed and specific and specialized your role gets added as a marketer, you get farther away from that hunger to really understand what your customer the pain that your customer feels that your solution is supposed to solve.

Brandi Starr  11:05

I agree completely. And I think where you start to come in there, as more people have conflicting priorities, or conflicting focuses, because when you are that sole marketer, doing it all, it's like exhausting, but you have a singular focus, like you own the whole thing. Whereas when you just own a piece of the puzzle, you kind of get tunnel vision, and you don't think about your piece in context.

Kaycee Kalpin  11:35

So, so true.

Brandi Starr  11:38

So that is that is a really, really great point. So let's, I want to fast forward a little bit. And let's assume that we do the legwork. We understand our customer, we feel, you know, we feel like we got it. We know our buying committee, we know where the friction points are, we know what our levers are to kind of, you know, move things forward. How does marketing change? Like, what is your perspective? Like, I know, you've done really great at premiere, and, you know, really maturing your team? So help me understand like, once we nail understanding the customer? What does it look like that?

Kaycee Kalpin  12:17

Yeah, so one of the first things I did when I took on the role of CMO is I, as every cmo does, it's like, let me plant my my people, my leaders, right. And oftentimes a times a leader comes in the form of a, an expert in a center of excellence, right? Like I've got the best digital strategist I could find on the market leading digital, I've got an ops person that is all up in my budget, knows my MAR tech stack, like nobody else, and knows the organization and how to communicate with sales, right. So I've got these centers of excellence and leaders over those centers of excellence, where I found the most success in staying very connected to the customer. And operating as efficiently as an enterprise as possible is an agile. So you read my bio, in that we certify most of our marketers in this concept of agile marketing. And, you know, agile because people in software development, you know, our tech teams are talking in the language of agile, and it's essentially doing more with less, but doing it more efficiently and making sure that you can go from A to Z instead of a to c while running out of resources. Right? And so we go back to that buyer journey, or the buying committees journey, and what are all of the friction points to get to the sale to the closed one business? And how do we remove those friction points with as least step as few steps as possible. And when you take a center of excellence and you kind of start breaking it down, I'm going to take a person from here from digital and I'm going to take a person from creative and a content person and a PR person. And I'm you know, maybe going to take someone that can build web and put them in a team and give them a campaign a buyer journey to solve for they start coloring outside of the lines a little bit. And it's like, oh, well, you know, you're great at design and you you know your work is beautiful, but I can create a Canva card for a social post. I got that right. So you're getting more and more out of your people because they understand the language of the customer. Because you've level set on the journey of the buyer. And because they're all committed and stalking hands on getting to the end goal of that campaign, which is revenue.

Brandi Starr  14:53

And you know, we're agile marketing certified as well and we use it I would say internally we're more agile ly It's because we are a small, you know, we're small organization, small team. So there are certain pieces that didn't make sense for us. But I think one thing, especially for enterprise organizations that you really hit on, is that cross functional teams with a problem to solve. So, you know, what are we going to do about this phase of the journey, this audience in the journey, like whatever it is that they are tackling, because then you are getting everyone's expertise focused on a single problem in a single period of time. And I think that's where a lot of disconnect that I see come in, I was just having a conversation with the client, one of my clients, their events team is focused on this Six Month Webinar Series. And it's, you know, all these key like, what we want to be known for in the marketplace things. And so they've got this motion, while digital is really focused on this new product launch, and they're doubled down on everything related to this. And then you know, the, the email team is like we need always on nurtures, but none of those like connects to the other things. And it's like all of these teams have their own like charter of what they're focused on. And so you have all this stuff. But with no cohesiveness. And I think with the agile in the cross functional team to solve a singular problem, and you know, with the sprints and agile, it's like, for this period of time, because that is the other thing, we plan to go A to Z, and we make it you know, eight a, maybe l if we're lucky. And then priorities shift, or when

Kaycee Kalpin  16:41

you run out of resources, right? I mean, the most simple extreme example I have that I explained to people who don't understand agile at all, and I learned this from our Agile coach, if you message me on LinkedIn, I'm happy to give the referral. But is, is making pizza with construction paper, right? So so you've got a ton of circles, and then you've got some vegetables and some pepperoni. And you you got to really set up an assembly line, who's going to cut out the white piece of paper, who's going to color it with the pizza sauce, who's going to put all the pepperonis on it, who's going to put it in the oven. And what, when we started doing that, as a team, we found that we didn't have enough people working the scissors. So there was this huge backlog of pizzas that needed to be cut round pieces of paper that needed to be cut. And people sitting there with other pieces ready two components of the pizza ready to put on and get it in the oven, and an oven that was going at full volume, but nothing was in it. So there's so much waste and inefficiency in that process, that the idea of Agile is to remove that to say, Okay, well maybe we don't need as many people operating the oven, and we need to pull them up to the top of the assembly line and have them start cutting, right. And so you are in that's why you really need people that can adjust an ebb and flow, they can't necessarily be so single minded on what their skill set is. You have to be focused on the customer. But that's one of the examples that I've used in the past that people are like, Oh, that makes so much sense.

Brandi Starr  18:19

Yeah, and you think about like going with that we did something similar with pennies. But going with that, you know, in that situation, you can just very easily say you used to be on the oven, now you're on the scissors, and you know, everybody can shift. Thinking about it in a real world situation. People aren't necessarily as interchangeable right to lever, when you look at the where those bottlenecks are, you know, I see like thinking about emails are sweetspot. So I spend a lot of time there. Design is kind of the we don't have enough people on scissors kind of thing that, you know, it hinders everything else. So you know, you made the joke about creating social graphics in Canva. Like, where can we do that? Where do we need the designers. And I do think it is really a different thought process. Versus this is my specialty like this is all that I'm going to do. Everything goes through me.

Kaycee Kalpin  19:17

And while it in your example is spot on. Because even with my designers, now we have a language. I'm like, here's a project and it's a three, or here's a project and it's a nine of 10. And that means level of effort and amount of really skill set. I want them to pour into this. If I know I can get the job done and convert the lead to the next stage of the funnel with a three with the customer having a seamless experience or the buyer having a Why am I going to give it a 10 right now, because I can give two more sets of three.

Brandi Starr  19:55

Yeah, yeah. And it is you know, and I think that's where a key component comes. As in with training your peers in the C suite, or you know, the others in a in the executive team, because so often, everybody thinks everything is a 10, you know, every product launch, you know, we got to launch, we got to do a big thing for a launch. And it's like, okay, well, what does this really mean for the customer, and maybe not so much. And so we don't need to give it that effort. But having that scale, and that language is is a great opportunity. And I think that's another disconnect that I see very often in enterprises, everybody's using a different term that like, you know, in this team, this is called that in this team, it's called that and it's like, okay, hold on, like, what what are, you know, for me coming in as a third party, I'm like, Okay, what does that even mean? And it's like, oh, well, this is that. Okay. Well, why why aren't we both saying that

Kaycee Kalpin  20:52

the like, exactly. Well, I totally agree. And this is where I get back to the alignment of marketing and sales, because if we're not speaking the same language, the the funnel isn't strong conversion isn't strong top isn't strong, the bottom doesn't have what it needs. So. So yeah, I mean, the language in stalking hands on priorities, I feel like is so critically important for any stage or any size of company.

Brandi Starr  21:23

Perfect? Well, I want to jump back to something you said in the very beginning, I kind of went down one tangent and want to bring it back, because you talked a lot about the metrics, and looking at the metrics, you know, for all the different stages of the funnel. And so talk more about your thoughts around the metrics and why that's so important. And why you see that as a core piece of the problem.

Kaycee Kalpin  21:54

Have a technical difficulty for just a minute,

Brandi Starr  21:58

it is quite alright. While you're doing that, I'll summarize kind of my two cents on some of the metrics things. You know, in our book cmo to CRO, we have a chapter called metrics that matter. And we also talked about the domino effect. And those really go together, which is anything, whatever it what gets measured, is what gets done. And so you know, when you're measuring it, people will focus on it. And our domino effect is putting those measurements together so that every person involved in the cycle from, you know, digital, to email, to sales to BDR, is to all of the people that touch revenue, that all of those metrics align in a way that we are all holistically focused on the same goal. And that it very much is like if you, you know, set up a domino formation, if they're too far apart, everybody falls flat on their face. If they're too close together, nobody has room to move. And so lining them up, is like, that's kind of my perspective on why the metrics and what we're measuring has to be at the center of, you know, beyond behind the customer has to be at the center of how we're organizing ourselves. So that's gonna lead with my two cents, and now let you give your it's, it's

Kaycee Kalpin  23:21

so but it's yours, it's very strong, because you're absolutely absolutely right, you can't manage what you can't measure. And and listen, I have throughout my career as a marketing leader in a marketer, a single contributor, you know, just a sole contributor, as a marketer, without even direct reports, I have, like escalated to measuring everything I possibly can. And now I'm sort of on this on this path of realizing that there's value in the darkness of the funnel in interactions that are documented or pre scheduled, or in, you know, social aspects of social that are, that are sort of dark, and you can't necessarily attribute back to the prospect, right? Like, we eventually will be able to measure this. But in my mind, there are some incredibly core metrics that you need to have no matter your size of organization. It's in I think about it from the bottom. Yeah, I would say from the bottom up, depending on if you flip your funnel or not. But I always start with what the goals of the sales team are. And actually, we've gotten so sophisticated to actually start with revenue recognition, and scaling that back to the goals to set the goals and sales team but always start with what the goals of the sales team are, and cascade that into you know, that's a number right, and you have different product lines, maybe you have a different mix of products or solutions that you sell. But I start with that that is the number of deals that we need to close to help them reach their goal? And then we work backwards. So, so how much of that funnel? Should marketing reasonably be accountable for based on, you know, the percentage of revenue that we spend on marketing? And how much of that funnel should sales be responsible for going out and hunting, some marketing teams, particularly for E commerce products, close deals all the way to click payment on the internet? Mine doesn't necessarily we are a contractual customer, you know, account driven organization. And so how, if you are accountable for let's say, 20 to 30% of that closed one business? How much pipeline do you need? And how many leads do you need in order to get that, so I call it a conversion, conversion funnel. It's different for every organization, I'd be glad to share, how do we do those measurements, but, but I feel like it's so incredibly core to know your goals, because that's going to really help you in an agile way, allocate resources for each stage to get to your metrics.

Brandi Starr  26:08

And I really like that you focus on conversion, because I think that is so important. So often, especially in larger organizations, I see people focus on the number, like, you know, in terms of demand, like we got to get so many impressions, and so many this and so many people to a demo and those sorts of things. And it's like playing a numbers game. And when resources get restricted, especially budget resources get restricted, then it's hard to play that numbers game like you can't just get in front of more people. Whereas based on what you're saying, and focusing on that conversion, if we're able to do things that increase the conversion rate, even if the numbers stay the same, we're going to win more business, like we're figuring out more of that control. And I do agree that that definitely requires an alignment with sales. And you talked about like finding the friction points in the customer journey. I think, as a marketer, the other, you know, thing that we have to understand is the sales journey, like where are the friction points there? Where do people fall out? Where does sales feel like they spin their wheels? You know, what I can remember asking? I was doing some stakeholder interviews for a client, and I asked several of their BDRs and their account reps. And I was like, What do you wish people knew before they talk to you? Like, what do you wish that your prospects like came into the conversation already knowing? And, you know, I just kind of threw the question out there randomly, it wasn't a planned question. And then once I asked it, the first time, I kept asking it, because it was so enlightening, where they were like, if they know this, you know, if they know how to answer this question, before they talk to me, my demos are 10 times more effective, or, you know, you know, I can get the meeting scheduled. And so that's kind of the other pieces. What are the friction points in the sales cycle that your sales team is experiencing? And how do you map you know, marry the buyers journey and the sales journey? And figure out where does my marketing fit in there? Well,

Kaycee Kalpin  28:33

it's it's imperative to know where your job starts and ends. Because depending on the size, and I see this with larger enterprise organizations more, depending on the size of your organization, sales may not even want you to touch their funnel, right. And so marketing's job really ends at that conversion point. And that's why conversion is so important. It's building trust between you and sales, because it's basically saying, garbage in garbage out. If your conversion is low, right, you're just sending garbage in and they're not converting and their leads that just get recycled. Or it's saying that you're giving them quality leads that have been and this is why I advocate for BDR is on the marketing team, but quality leads that have the budget and authority and need and timing to actually convert into a good pipeline opportunity and maybe even, you know, accelerate through the pipeline. And Brandi. That's the other point that some marketers miss, which is what you're exactly saying, what are the friction points to get that deal to close as fast as possible? And is it that you wish they would have seen a five minute demo of your technology before they joined or a five minute demonstration of the problem that is is you know plaguing them in order to need your solution. And marketers can build that content and tell that story. Help sales was even plug it into some of their workflows depending on your tech and helped sales accelerate the time between stages, which that kind of marketing sales partnership is just outrageous.

Brandi Starr  30:12

Yes, and that's another thing that's wrong with the a word is it's not taking velocity into account. And for a lot of organizations, velocity is the value of marketing like it is less about, you know, getting in front of people and those sorts of things. It is more about accelerating the pipeline. And so that's a great, great point there in being able to focus on that measure as well, like how do we get things to move faster, not just to move?

Kaycee Kalpin  30:47

Well, in in, I talk to, particularly in a startup situation for smaller organizations, talk to a lot of people that don't have marketers, but they have sales teams. And so they'll say, where should I start from a marketing perspective. And I often don't say sourcing leads, what I often say is velocity, get your marketers into your sales process and try to figure out the friction points that you can remove in order to do two things, move it faster, and increase the contract value. Right? So how do you add value from a marketing or content perspective to that sales journey so that they're sourcing as much as they possibly can? And maybe in a startup environment? It's meeting, a great need, and leads are just pouring in? How do you? How do you better faster? How do you get better quality leads? How do you accelerate them through the funnel? And how do you get that larger and ACV? In order to really just accelerate growth for the company?

Brandi Starr  31:56

And I love that as an opinion, because most people start with demand, like if they look at what's that first marketing hire, it is almost always demand, like how do we drive more demand? How do we get more eyeballs, you know, all of those things that are big, and it's harder to you know, it's, it's like that's a more of a long term motion, it takes some time for that stuff to actually work. But if we can jump in and accelerate velocity, where sales is already driving interest, you can see more value to be able to grow the marketing team.

Kaycee Kalpin  32:34

Well, and this is why, by opinion, I'll just drill in on that opinion for a minute. When you start with demand, your puts, especially if you're in startup mode, or small to mid size, you're setting yourself up for failure, and you're setting yourself up to really disconnect from your customers. Because what happens when you have a lot of demand coming in, and you aren't able to convert it, your customers have filled out a form on your website, they've they've put something into your chat bot, they've maybe even called your customer service line, and no one's calling them back. They're going to your competitor. Right? Right. If they're filling out your form, they're filling out five other farms. And so, to me, there's nothing worse than a lead that goes stale, because you're basically telling that customer like you don't matter to me. And so, I always tell any startups that I work with or that I advise I usually say your best marketers are people that are not marketers that can source leads for you go to your board, go to your funders, go to your sales team, go to your CEO Rolodex them, see who's in their network where they can put leads in the funnel then you can make sure that you can go through the sales motion before you start any of the lead gen stuff demand gen digital because that can just potentially go too fast for you without time to really convert.

Brandi Starr  34:05

Yeah, and you know word of mouth always spreads fast word of mouth when someone you know a company does not follow up with you or you have a horrible you know, sales cycle that spreads even faster. And you know, I've got companies that just you know, as you were saying that that I'm thinking of that I'd never call on just because I've heard too many people talk about how horrible the sales process has been. And for all I know like they could be the perfect thing that I need but it's like mentally I'm like up No, there are no because I've just heard that too many times and that is a great example of you know, doing too much too fast. You drop that ball, it's hard to recover,

Kaycee Kalpin  34:49

but likely not Brandi right like the like people will put their sales and marketing their best foot forward on sales and marketing. What my law That looks amazing. Inside of my house is a hot mess, right? And so people are going to put their best resources and and pour money and time and effort into their sales and marketing functions. If that is broken, and they can't follow up with an inbound customer, imagine what operationally is going on. So sort of like, I'm kind of I kind of am with you, if you if you went through a broken sales cycle, then you're probably working with a company that, you know, maybe you should go next door.

Brandi Starr  35:33

Yeah. Um, so my last question that I'll ask is, you know, we've talked about a lot of different aspects of how you really market for every stage and how you be successful. And I've taken away some really key nuggets. And so I always like to ask for advice. So if, if I was coming to you with, you know, my marketing organization is at least somewhat mature, but feels very disconnected and broken. What's your advice for me?

Kaycee Kalpin  36:12

So two pieces, and I've already said both, I like to, I like to, this is what I like to do, I like to tell them what I'm going to tell them, I like to tell them, and then I like to tell them what I told them. So that's what I'm gonna do here. But one is spend at least 25% of your time with your customers. I mean, we market to Health System executives and professionals, I don't have to spend time with an actual customer, I have sisters that are nurses, shadow them for a day, right? Understand your customers language, understand the job that they have to be done. And really try to infuse that into your marketing is one piece of advice that I have. The second piece, as you think about a broken organization, is you've got to start with those buyer journeys. And I don't even mean from a marketing perspective. I mean, like you said, Brandi, you said it best, from the moment they enter your, you know, even outside your funnel to the moment that the business closes. And actually you should really continue even beyond to make sure that you retain them, map that out. And then align your resources don't come in hot and say I need a digital team, I need a web team, I need this and that and that understand your buyer journey. Because you may be able to create a business off of no digital and just live events, you may be able to create create a business off only digital right, but you have to know the friction points that your buyers going through in order to identify those steps to take.

Brandi Starr  37:45

I love it. And I very much I have been a Toastmaster for many years. And that was one of the key principles is tell them what you're gonna tell them, tell them and then tell them what you told them. Great advice there. And you know, talking about our challenges is just the first step. And nothing changes if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework. But here at revenue rehab, we like to flip it on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So you've given us a lot of action items. But I want to distill it down to what's the one thing if someone is listening, and they're like, I gotta get it together? What is that one, that first step that they can do in the next 30 days to help move in the right direction?

Kaycee Kalpin  38:37

Talk to your customers. Don't lose sight of your customers. I mean, I have I have marketing people who begged to be on sales calls, right? Because they want to hear the customer look in spaces where you maybe wouldn't otherwise have thought your customers are even digitally read it. I have a ton of customers on Reddit, you never would have thought they were there. Talk to your customers. If you have not tuned into your customer in 24 hours, you've missed something. Something has happened that you should have known that may compel them to buy.

Brandi Starr  39:14

Awesome. As I'm saying this is not the first time we have heard talk to your customers as the advice and it is always good advice. So if you if it's been more than 24 hours, since you have talked to your customers, whether directly or indirectly, that is your action item. Well, Casey, I have enjoyed our discussion so much. But that's our time for today.

Kaycee Kalpin  39:40

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Brandi. This has been so fun. I think we're going to be friends long beyond this podcast.

Brandi Starr  39:47

Yes, definitely. I think that's one of the best parts of being a podcast host is I get to meet so many amazing people that I would not have ordinarily gotten to me and you are definitely one of them. So, so much. Thanks to everyone for joining us today. I hope that you have enjoyed my discussion with Casey. I can't believe we're already at the end. We'll see you next time.

Outro VO  40:14

You've been listening to revenue rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over, but the learning has just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue rehab dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.