Navigating Remote Work: Building Trust and Flexibility in the Modern Workplace

Brandi Starr [00:00:34]:
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host, Brandi Starr, and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Karen Mangia. Karen is one of the most sought after keynote speakers in the world, the Wall Street Journal's best selling author of four books, host of the success from Anywhere podcast, and a tenured tech executive. She is currently president and chief strategy officer of Engineered Innovation Group. Having previously been at Salesforce, Cisco, and at and T. Karen is a catalyst who uses curiosity, creativity to empower individuals, teams and organizations to successfully define, design and deliver the future. And Karen is no stranger to revenue rehab.

Brandi Starr [00:01:29]:
She joined me for episode 59 when we talked about executive Burnout. Karen, welcome back to Revenue rehab. Your session begins now.

Karen Mangia [00:01:42]:
Thanks so much. I hope that the encore is as good or better than the original debut.

Brandi Starr [00:01:48]:
Yes, I was going to say, well, hey, you set the bar pretty high the last time you were here, but I have no doubt that we will be able to top that. And so before we jump into our topic, I like to break the ice with a little woo saw moment that I call buzzword banishment. So what buzzword would you like to get rid of? Forever viral?

Karen Mangia [00:02:17]:
We're not going viral. This whole idea that the framing success metric is whether or not something you create goes viral puts us in this mindset of vanity metrics rather than value metrics. You might create a piece of content, you're a marketer, you might create a piece of content that goes viral and millions of people see it and it nets you zero leads for your business. So viral's got to go away in service of more value metrics and fewer vanity metrics.

Brandi Starr [00:02:51]:
I am with you on that. And it's so like, the desire to go viral for most brands is so weird to me. Like, there are some brands like Nike or, you know, something that is like real consumer driven. Millions of people would buy it. Like, that I get. But for most b two b companies, it's like, what does viral really mean? And what is that getting for us? Like, we don't, you know, our ICP isn't millions of people and it usually is just someone's random aunt's kid, you know, that's just liking and watching or whatever. So I'm with you on. We can definitely put viral in the box and throw away the key.

Brandi Starr [00:03:38]:
Yes. So now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me, what brings you to revenue rehab today?

Karen Mangia [00:03:46]:
I am here to talk about work and the workplace and the workforce and how those all come together, because believe it or not, here we are in 2024, and we are still having this conversation about where, when and how work can happen best.

Brandi Starr [00:04:08]:
Yes. And I know I've seen lots of articles and been a part of lots of conversations, and there's lots of CEO pushes for people to return to the office or I hate the phrase return to work as if people weren't working all this time. So glad you're here to talk about that. And I believe in setting intentions. It gives us focus, it gives us purpose. And, and most important, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our discussion today. And so what's your best hope? What would you like people to take away from our discussion?

Karen Mangia [00:04:46]:
You used a very important word, purpose. And what I would like for people to do when they walk away today is to commit to gathering with a purpose. So if you're going to be in the office, what's the purpose of that? If you're going to gather for a meeting, what's the purpose of that? Commit to gathering with a purpose.

Brandi Starr [00:05:10]:
I love that, especially because that, like, thinking about it that way impacts all of us. Like, even if you're not in an organization where there's a push to return to the office or any of these things, we all have heavy meeting calendars. You know, it's, that becomes the default sometimes. And really thinking about gathering with a purpose, I think, is a great way to think about this. And so my first question is, I do want to talk a bit about the, where, where people work. And, you know, prior to the pandemic, there were some roles that were fully remote, most in the office, and a handful that were hybrid. And the ability to work from home, and I use that specifically and not work from anywhere, but work from home was often seen as a perk and a thing that, you know, a privilege that people aspire to. Covid hit.

Brandi Starr [00:06:14]:
And we all had no choice. You know, everyone had to figure out how to keep business happening for over a year. And so things are different now. And some people have embraced the remote culture, embraced a work from anywhere, but we are definitely still seeing so many organizations of all sizes pushing for people to consistently be in the office. And why do you feel like this debate of where work happens is still a thing.

Karen Mangia [00:06:53]:
Imagine what would happen if I sat down with a CEO and looked at that CEO in the eyes and said, productivity is a privilege and a perk, how might they respond?

Brandi Starr [00:07:10]:
Yeah, I mean, that statement by itself is pretty off putting.

Karen Mangia [00:07:15]:
It is. And that's why I think it's critical to look at the facts. We all have access to the same facts about the productivity and performance of the employees inside of our organizations. And rather than getting into a religious debate about where work happens, it's like any other religious debate, which is when you're operating from your own preference, you're clouded to other points of view more often than not. And that's why I think what would happen if we did what we all learned back in the Stephen Covey day and did the begin with the end in mind principle? Well, if the end for any organization, frankly, is profitable growth, or if you're in the not for profit space having enough donors to see afloat and have a little cash flow buffer, looking at that as your ideal outcome and working your way back in, what I would choose to challenge is what fact based evidence could you offer that employees are only productive and able to deliver that means to an end in an office. So I say go upstream, start with the facts, and choose to challenge some of those assumptions.

Brandi Starr [00:08:35]:
I think that is important. And I think where I get most confused by this is I understand prior to the entire world having to do it, why this was questioned, because there wasn't as much evidence. And, you know, there were all these rebuttals of but, but. And then we all had to do it globally at the same time, forced with very little preparation. And it worked. It wasn't flawless, but it worked. And so I think this is where I struggle the most. And I know, you know, you see a lot more of the studies and research and the conversations.

Brandi Starr [00:09:23]:
Is there something that you're seeing that is triggering people to still not get it?

Karen Mangia [00:09:30]:
There's an underlying belief that shows up in big and small ways in organizations, and it's this deeply held belief that productivity and performance is a function of proximity and power. And here's what I mean by that. If I'm the one in power, I can feel that I'm dictating your performance and materially impacting your productivity when I see you. The reality is performance is not always a function of productivity and being close to powerful people, or powerful people being close to you. What I've discovered is we're still fundamentally trying to reconcile this trust gap between employers and employees. That says, if you're the employer, how do I know my employees are working? And if you're the employee, it's how does my boss know how hard I'm working? And what we default to, rather than getting curious, is a common prescription that says, if I see you, then I'll know for sure. I've got news for you. I watch my own employees online shopping and making their Pandora playlist and spending a whole lot of time figuring out what they're going to order for lunch.

Karen Mangia [00:10:43]:
I can see some of them. Does that mean they're being productive unnecessarily?

Brandi Starr [00:10:49]:
Yeah. And, I mean, I can remember, I mean, for me, it's been almost 15 years since I've been full time in an office, but I can remember when I was all of the. Exactly what you said, like, figuring out what am I going to order for lunch, if I'm ordering with my coworkers, gathering everyone's lunch, walking back and forth here and there, the hallway conversations that you didn't expect to have, you know, going to the printer. Like, there was a lot of wasted time, and there was still this perception of productivity because we were all in the same building. So, yeah, I do think that that is a common misconception. And so before we kind of dig into your thoughts around what we do about it and what's the way that we should be thinking about this, I want to touch on one thing that I've seen a lot, and that is, you know, my audience is primarily CMos vps of marketing, and I've even seen other executives of other functions where they seem to get it, but those around them, so their peers or their CEO don't. And do you feel like, you know, some people will be like, not my battle to fight. Like, do you feel like it is worth the time and energy if I'm the one trying to fight the battle against others, to really allow for people to, you know, work the way that's best for them.

Karen Mangia [00:12:25]:
What I like to think about is to what degree does your workplace strategy affect your ability to attract, retain, and progress your top talent? At the end of the day, if you return to office policy, is it churn function for the lowest performing 20% of people in the organization? Perhaps that's an incredible gift. That's rarely the case. Your top talent, the people who are your performers, you want to enable with flexibility and choice, or to at least understand their preferences. And I like to think about what happens in this moment with regard to values and beliefs and thinking about what values and beliefs are we bumping up against when we issue this kind of mandate? So it might be, I value employees who give me FaceTime. I perhaps I'm a leader or an employee who values and does my best work by collaborating with other people around the whiteboard in the conference room. And I do that best in person. And at the same time, someone else who's a high performer is saying, the deep work that I do, I have to have total, quiet, predictable surroundings so that I can have focused, uninterrupted time to do what I do best that creates value for the organization. So the best tool that we can deploy, even at this stage, is curiosity.

Karen Mangia [00:13:50]:
Asking some more questions, and one of the most powerful questions I have discovered is, why does this matter to you so much? So if you're asking your boss, could I work from home one day per week, your boss keeps saying, absolutely not. Ask, why does this matter to you so much? If it's the employee that's, you know, asking that, if you're the executive that's trying to fight the good fight on behalf of your team, ask the person who's the blocker, why does this matter to you so much? And then a step further, the next bolder question is, what are you getting from this?

Brandi Starr [00:14:30]:
Yeah, and that's a really good point, because sometimes I don't think people actually stop to think about why they feel the way they feel. It's more of, like, my gut reaction is, this is a no, or, you know, it's always been a no, so now it's a no, or I don't want to change, or I don't want to think about it. But those are two great questions that can be used to actually uncover what it is, because sometimes there is a lot of that fear of, how do I know what people are doing? How do I know, you know, this, that or the other. And in some cases, you will uncover, like, legitimate challenges or legitimate concerns. Like, I know I was talking to someone, and they talked about some of the employees who were newer in their careers and how the concern was if they are fully remote, they don't get the same sort of coaching and mentoring and opportunities that many of us who are, you know, quite a bit further along in our career had. And so that is like, the concern is it's not just those newer people that need to be in the office. They need to benefit from, you know, being around and having that nurturing of everyone. And so it's like, very much the heart is in the right place, so to speak.

Brandi Starr [00:15:57]:
But I think that also comes back to committing to gather with purpose. It's like knowing that that is a thing that needs to happen. It's like, how do you foster that in different work environments?

Karen Mangia [00:16:13]:
And something I've learned from our brilliant engineering leader, Kavita Kamal. We have employees now in different time zones, in different countries. And what she instituted for her team is when we have someone living significantly out of the time zone or out of the country for three months, they commit to working mostly on our headquarters office hours. And then it tapers until they're working in their local time zone. And what I found fascinating about that is it allows for this onboarding topic we're discussing. Right. So bring this into some other organizations. For three months, we want you to come into the office five days a week, because we feel you're onboarding faster.

Karen Mangia [00:16:57]:
You're building employees important relationships with colleagues that help you be productive. And then at the end of three months, we'll revisit this. Maybe it becomes now four days a week, you come to the office, or whatever that looks like. What I like is, there was a purpose behind the policy and behind what was communicated. And then everyone else knew what to expect. For three months, I have this person all the time. Then there will be a little adjustment period. Then we will taper.

Karen Mangia [00:17:26]:
But we've built a relationship by then. We've shared information. We know how to find each other and to communicate. It wasn't all or nothing all the.

Brandi Starr [00:17:34]:
Time, I was gonna say. And that, I think, is a great way to think about it as well, because I do see a lot of this all or nothing kind of mentality of, like, either we do or we don't. And I've seen different approaches. Like, I've seen some companies who will still only hire local, but they will allow people to work remote, and it gives the flexibility of when we need to come together. We are all, you know, geographically close enough that we can do so quickly to convene. So there are. I do see companies solving it in different ways. What are some of the solutions that you have seen where companies that you feel like are getting it right in how they are looking at those employee preferences and productivity, and giving that flexibility in a way that works for the.

Karen Mangia [00:18:31]:
Organization first, is that great organizations get deeply curious. They do ask questions about, why does an employee or team have a specific preference? What's behind that? What's motivating about it? It's also helpful to understand if you were to ask an employee to take big chunks of experiences across their workforce journey, which ones would be most meaningful to them to have in person versus not. So get curious. The next is I start to look in the direction of creating choices, because great organizations give their employees choices that are the intersection between what the employee wants and what the employer is willing to live with. So imagine a scenario if I said to you, you could have four extra PTO or flex hours per month, or you could have 4 hours every Friday to work from home. I'm making this up. Which would you value more? Start asking for things that are budget neutral that you might be willing to live with. Because what you might find is some employees would value working from home more.

Karen Mangia [00:19:43]:
Some employees would value the experience of, you know, having some other kind of flexibility or choice in some other area. So where could you create some choices? And what comes to mind? For me, it sounds like a funny analogy. I went to a catholic high school. We had uniforms. The first Friday of every month was alternate dress. You got to choose to wear something different to school other than your uniform. It was amazing. That was also offered as an incentive from time to time for other types of performance.

Karen Mangia [00:20:13]:
There is nothing more freeing than everybody else is in their uniform and you're in your alternate dress. And I think about this work at LG, but great organization that. In fact, there's an entire startup company called the PTO exchange focused on this concept, which is what would your employees spend their PTO on? It might not always be time off. They might want to convert those hours into dollars to pay off their student loans. They might want to donate their PTO to another employee who's having a major health issue and doesn't have enough PTO, I think about how could you create flexibility within a framework? So if you're going to get curious and you're going to understand the motivators and you're going to commit to gathering with a purpose, and you can get curious about what some trade offs might be. You can get into the mode where you can offer something without feeling that you had to offer everything, because this all or nothing approach puts us in a win lose me. You debate where everybody just digs in and is like, my way or the highway, and that just doesn't do anything good for anyone.

Brandi Starr [00:21:17]:
And I agree there as well. And I like what you said in terms of flexibility within a framework because, you know, especially the larger the organization, like, it can't be the wild, wild west of, you know, what are you offering people and who gets what? Because then you do. You start to, it becomes a nightmare to manage. You start to get into situations where, you know, things aren't air quotes fair or, you know, people aren't treated equally. And so I do like that flexibility within a framework, because you then have a framework within the organization of like this is what we've defined that we can support or what you, what you stated willing to allow. But here's where there are the flexible points because to your point, there are, you know, I know some people who would rather a higher salary versus having pto because, you know, that's not their jam. And other people who would willingly take a pay cut if they had significantly more pto because that's what matters to them. So I do think that that is a great approach.

Brandi Starr [00:22:29]:
And so in thinking about organizations like, I think, you know, we're a 25 person organization, so it's fairly easy for us to adapt and to really understand what our employees want because we're small. When you're talking to and working with larger organizations, like what approaches have you seen to be able to really, it's going to be impossible to truly get the opinion of every single employee if you've got 1000 people in the organization. So what are you seeing larger companies do who really want to truly solve for this?

Karen Mangia [00:23:10]:
Bigger organizations are doing three or four things incredibly well. One, utilizing employee survey data. Most big organizations have an employee pulse survey every year, every six months, every quarter. This is typically a theme within it. Why would you stay at our organization? Why would you leave? There's typically the question, if you were offered the same pay at another organization, would you stay or go? Why is that? I mean, if people are writing, it's because we have a return to the office policy. There's some rich insights there. That scale, right, you get a little bit more critical math. Second is utilizing exit interviews.

Karen Mangia [00:23:46]:
So what you discover in an exit interview and something like making more money and having more flexibility are the real things that people would tell you at an exit interview. It's more challenging if it's I'm leaving the toxic boss or toxic environment. People tend to say those things less. But when it's more flexibility and more pay or more benefits of some kind that are valuable, people will say that in an exit interview. So great organizations do that. The other one I'm finding to be a little bit more consistent is the number of organizations that are being more curious about regrettable attrition. So this top talent that leaves your organization that everyone is disappointed to see them go and would love to have them back and studying where they go next. It's not just about pay.

Karen Mangia [00:24:34]:
It's very often there's some kind of flexibility that they're gaining. And what's typically helpful is when employees are new to organizations, they tend to be great about posting on LinkedIn why they're at this place and how much they love it and why. So those are great curiosity campaigns. And several organizations have built actual boomerang campaigns to attract people back and also use what they've discovered as business cases to make changes to how certain roles are structured and to some of the operating procedures of the organization and policies as well.

Brandi Starr [00:25:07]:
Really interesting. Yeah, there's a lot. And I think those people are the ones where, you know, it happens, like, they leave and you almost feel blindsided. And that's when companies tend to, like, do the. What can we do to get you to stay? And it's like, well, by that point, you know, you've already lost them. But being able to, like, see where they go, understand that information, to tap into that, I do think is really important. I want to shift gears a little bit and get your thoughts. There's been a lot of debate where companies are in support of work from home, remote work.

Brandi Starr [00:25:51]:
But when you start to think about work from anywhere, this is where a lot of friction comes in. And I'll give you an example. Had a friend who is from Jamaica. His kids live in Jamaica with their mom, and he lives in the United States. And so periodically, and he works 100% remote, periodically, he will work from Jamaica. He has a home there, and so a home office there as well. And, you know, one day he mentioned that on a call like, that he was going to spend with his kids or something in a meeting that indicated that he was in Jamaica. And all of a sudden it became a problem because Jamaica was viewed as a vacation destination.

Brandi Starr [00:26:42]:
And he's like, yeah, I don't see the beach when I'm here. Like, it's the same. And I've seen this in multiple companies where it's fine if you work from home, but if someone knows you're working from air quotes, a destination, it all of a sudden is a problem, creates friction. There starts to be this, maybe we need to, you know, return to the office. And I'd love to hear your thoughts, because I think this opinion is one that is more widespread than those that believe that everybody should be, you know, fully back in an office. What are your thoughts on this, you know, from home versus from anywhere?

Karen Mangia [00:27:24]:
I will never forget the time I found myself in the scenario of discovering an employee was not only acting as a digital nomad had gone as far as to rent an apartment in another country. So planning an extended stay, and then that became not showing up on meetings. It went on and on, and we learned some important lessons as a team from that experience. And the first is you need to have in your employee agreement and employee handbook the amount of time someone can work outside of the place where they were literally hired. So we defined the city, state, and time zone and country in which you were hired as your location. And if you were going to be outside of that for more than x amount of time, we put a stipulation in place of how far in advance that had to be asked for conversation approved, because it starts to create an undue hardship on the rest of the team when they don't know where someone is and what time zone they're in and what to expect in terms of responsiveness and meeting scheduling. So ours became. We discovered that was a definite hole in our stated policies that had a whole bunch of implications, tax implications for the business, tax implications, potentially for the individual, but even it taxes the people around you who don't know what to expect from you anymore.

Karen Mangia [00:28:57]:
So, as much as I am a fan of work from anywhere and be responsible and get your things done, the reality is somebody else is interdependent on you getting things done. And so asking, rather than assuming is critical. And this is a place where employers have to set incredibly clear expectations for employees because there are lots of arrangements and very valid reasons why somebody wants to work somewhere for some percentage of the time. It's just speaking that into a conversation and having a policy to back that up is critical.

Brandi Starr [00:29:27]:
Okay. And I definitely agree that being clear and, you know, having policy is. Is really important. And also, I can definitely understand when you get to the point where you're renting a place like that becomes a residence, and that's a different conversation. Like you said, for tax purposes. I've also seen some people bring up the security in terms of where you are logging in from and the vulnerability that that creates. Um, I think the place that I would love to push back just to hear your thoughts, is more so on outside of the scenarios where someone is like, you know, taking up residency, but if the person is a, still operating on the same time zone, so they're not creating a meeting challenge, and b, still getting all of their work done, why does it matter?

Karen Mangia [00:30:31]:
What happens is anything that people discover, rather than being told feels like your intentions are not good. And this is why the communication piece is so critical. You spoke this into the example, people had a connotation that a specific location was a vacation spot, so therefore, you weren't working, even though you said you're working while you're there. I'm guessing that the colleagues or the boss or whoever it was found that out during the experience versus in advance. Roll that back. This is where it's critically important to say, I am going to be working from Jamaica for five business days because my children live there. I will be keeping my same meeting schedule, my same responsiveness time and hours, and working on headquarters time. Just wanted to let you know in advance.

Karen Mangia [00:31:26]:
It's speaking that into the conversation, because when people find it out later, what happens is everybody fills in the blank of the story. I knew. I knew he wasn't really working.

Brandi Starr [00:31:35]:
Uh huh.

Karen Mangia [00:31:36]:
So he just snuck off to Jamaica. We're all here at the office with the boss, or whatever it is. I mean, if he's two minutes late to a meeting, someone's going to say, oh, he was probably just at the beach. Right. So it's interesting, and I think this is part of clear communication is critical when you're deviating from the expected norm. It's not that you can't do it. It's that people always feel differently when they're told in advance something versus finding out after the fact. Feels like you're trying to get away with something, and that just feeds into that trust loop that we were talking about earlier.

Brandi Starr [00:32:12]:
And so what I take away from that, just pull. Putting myself, you know, thinking about it from the leaders perspective, is what you were saying around being really clear with your employees, around what is deemed acceptable, as well as, like, what your policies are upfront so that everyone can abide by that and understand, you know, all the implications of that.

Karen Mangia [00:32:41]:
Yes. And this is where team agreements are particularly effective. Yes. There tends to be a company policy, and then it can be to, as a team, what do we agree to about working from different locations, working hours, response times, advance notice, if somebody is going to the dentist or the doctor or working in some fundamentally different location, bring that into the team of these scenarios and formalize the commitments to each other inside of your team. It just helps with setting clear expectations and also building trust and maintaining it.

Brandi Starr [00:33:20]:
Okay. And then my last question is, you know, I always like to think about the, like, why should we care? And we've touched on a lot of it, and, you know, I fundamentally definitely care, but would love to, you know, for anybody that needs a little more convincing, so to speak, like, why does this matter? Why do organizations really need to think about and give thought to this work flexibility and, you know, the. The purpose of gathering and all the things that you are saying. Like, what's the implication if we don't get this right?

Karen Mangia [00:34:02]:
When there is a gap between what leaders say and what leaders do, it seeds mistrust and contempt among people. So here's an example. If you're one of the many organizations who have the employees first, employees are a mass, valuable asset, whatever your version of that is. And then people are never asked. They're only told. They're like, you don't value me. You never ask me what I care about. I care about not coming to the office five days a week.

Karen Mangia [00:34:32]:
I care about working from Jamaica with my kids. That's not true. That's not authentic. That's not real. That's where trouble starts. People have to know that they can trust you as a leader. And trust begins with putting actions to your intentions. So if you intend for your employees to feel valued and be valuable, your action would be asking, rather than assuming how that employee could be at their best, taking that into consideration before rolling out policies and procedures.

Brandi Starr [00:35:02]:
Yeah, I love it. And, you know, employee satisfaction is so important, and I think in recent years has become more important because I do think, you know, people in general want to feel valued. They want to have their time respected. They want to do good work and still be able to live life. Whereas if I look at generations past, there was a little bit different of a mentality, and turnover costs so much. I mean, not just in financial resources, but the loss of institutional knowledge, the disruption of not having that role and then filling it and onboarding it, all of the things. And so in some cases, it is simple conversations like this that leadership can have to figure out. You know, I love what you talked about in terms of the employee survey of if you were offered another job, you know, same pay, same benefits, would you take it? And, you know, why or why not like to really understand what's keeping people and what's potentially turning them away? So I do.

Brandi Starr [00:36:14]:
I think that is really, really important. And so talking about our challenges is just the first step, and nothing changes if nothing changes. And so, in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework. But here at revenue rehab, we like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So for those that are listening, you know, if what you're saying has resonated with them, where do they start? What's their one thing that first. That first step that they should take?

Karen Mangia [00:36:48]:
Get curious. We all tend to fill in the blanks and think we know our employees or our colleagues and what's best for everyone. Ask. Great leaders are curious, and great discoveries begin as great questions. We've talked about some of them here today. Why does this matter to you so much? What are you getting from this? What areas of your work would you value more flexibility? What would that look like for you? What are the moments that are best served in person? When we gather, what could the purpose be? Get curious, ask some questions, and open up the conversation. And along that way of discovery, there will be lots of options that surface for how to be flexible inside of a framework work.

Brandi Starr [00:37:38]:
I love it. I love it. That is a great action item and takeaway. Well, Karen, I have enjoyed our discussion, but that's our time for today. But before we go, how can our audience connect with you?

Karen Mangia [00:37:54]:
You can find me on LinkedIn is the easiest way with my name. You can connect with me there. Send me a message and we'll take it from there.

Brandi Starr [00:38:03]:
Awesome. Well, we will make sure to link to your LinkedIn. Likewise, if you have not already listened to episode 59, jump back and hear the first time that Karen joined me on the couch. Well, thanks, everyone, so much for joining us. And Karen, thank you again for coming back. I think this was extremely insightful, and I've taken away a couple things that I want to talk to my team about as well.

Karen Mangia [00:38:29]:
My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

Brandi Starr [00:38:31]:
Awesome. Well, thanks, everyone. I can't believe we're at the end. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.