Personal Brand Building on LinkedIn: Option or Requirement + Tips for How

[0:05] Intro:  

Welcome to Revenue Rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita, Brandi Starr.

[0:34] Brandi Starr:   

Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr and we have another amazing episode for you today, I am joined by Chris Roche. Chris is the founder and CEO of Catalyst Consulting; a full service revenue and pipeline growth focused marketing agency. Catalyst specializes in partnering with b2b SaaS companies on both strategy and execution of demand generation. Welcome to Revenue Rehab Chris, your session begins now.

[1:09] Christopher Roche:    

Hey Brandi. Thanks for having me. Very excited to talk with you today.

[1:13] Brandi Starr:   

Awesome. Thanks so much for joining me. And before we jump into our topic today, I like to break the ice with a little woosah moment that I call buzzword banishment. So tell me, what buzzword would you like to get rid of forever?

[1:33] Christopher Roche:   

I don't know if it's necessarily something that I want to get rid of forever, but it's something that I see commonly misused. And I think it's just become a buzzword in the marketing field. And I know you mentioned prior, a lot of your listeners are marketing leaders. And the term demand generation is widely misused across all marketing right now. A lot of marketing leaders talk about how they want to get into demand generation, they talk about the strategies that they want to do, however, it's just broadly confused with really ungating lead generation. And that actual movement to demand generation is a lot more complex than I think a lot of marketers give it credit for. So it's something that, I don't want to get rid of the term because it's definitely something that when used correctly is immensely powerful. However, the misunderstanding of it today, as it's become this very popular strategy, is just mind boggling to me as to how many companies claim that they do demand generation but simply are just doing ungated lead gen.

[2:30] Brandi Starr:  

And I do agree there that lead gen and demand gen have become synonymous and I do think that it is incorrect. I usually don't take this deep on the buzzword, but because you brought it up and I know demand generation is what you do, I'd love to hear you share with our listeners, how do you define demand generation? What's the right way that we should be using the term?

[2:57] Christopher Roche:   

The way that I work with clients to create demand is really to focus on building that brand affinity. It's about taking your product or your service out of the commodity category. Because if you continue to stay in that commodity, where you're a competitor and you compete on individual features or you compete on price, you're constantly putting yourself in a position where you have to justify your product versus another. But when you can build that brand affinity, when you can build that relationship with your potential buyers early on in the buying process, and one of the best ways that we found to do that is actually through creating your personal brand through your leadership team, which we're going to get into a lot more detail today. That's truly how you can create demand to be very, very effective at scale, when you look at launching these demand generation campaigns.

[3:44] Brandi Starr:   

Perfect, I appreciate that. And that is definitely a perfect segue into my question, which is what brings you to Revenue Rehab today?

[3:54] Christopher Roche:   

I mean, I've been following on LinkedIn for a while and obviously seeing a lot of the great interviews and then today I reached out, I wanted to have a conversation with you specifically on personal branding on LinkedIn for leadership of SaaS companies for marketers and how they can start to invest in their own personal brand and how you can really utilize that as a tool for not only generating demand, but attracting potential employees to your company, attracting potential sales and just furthering your understanding of how to actually leverage this as a channel for your business.

[4:27] Brandi Starr:   

Awesome. And I believe in setting intentions. It gives us focus and it gives us purpose, and most important, it lets our audience know what they should expect. So as we get into how and why they should be building a personal brand, what would you like our audience to take away from this discussion? What's your intention?

[4:49] Christopher Roche:   

My intention with this is to simply educate on the best way to invest in your personal brand and then why it's something that you should be doubling down on today. My hope at the end of this is that we'll have marketers that listen to this that have maybe been nervous to post content, nervous to really start creating video content, posting on LinkedIn, who were kind of in that lurking category where they're consuming a lot of content and maybe they're commenting here and there, providing some value, but they haven't yet been in a position where they feel confident enough to take that leap and produce content. And my hope is, at the end of this, we'll have quite a few marketers who are now willing to go ahead and produce content.

[5:26] Brandi Starr:   

Perfect. So my first question for you jumps right into the title of this episode, which is option or requirements. So for a marketing leader, do you feel like building a personal brand and having a social presence? Do you feel like it's an option, that it's only right for certain people? Or are we at a place where it's a requirement?

[5:50] Christopher Roche:   

It's not something that you should have to be forced to do by your company. I think if you're in a position where you have a CEO say hey, I want you to produce content on your personal brand, I don't think you should have to be forced into it by company. And I've seen situations where even marketing leaders try and force SDRS to go and create content. It's not something that can be forced upon you, but the value that you get from producing the content compounds so significantly over an extended period that I think is something that every marketer should be doing. And if they're not significantly missing out on the advantages, that you can kind of reap the rewards when you do start producing content.

[6:28] Brandi Starr:   

Okay. This conversation around, building brand on LinkedIn, outside of LinkedIn, etc, has come up in a number of places where I've been talking to CMOs, heads of marketing. And so I want to dive into some of the pushback that I've heard, and get your take on that. And the first and probably most obvious challenge is the time. A lot of people will say I don't have the time to spend hours and hours on LinkedIn, building a brand and building a following. I have a company to lead. And so what's your response to that objection?

[7:11] Christopher Roche:   

It's not time you don't have it, it's prioritizing it. For me, I work out a lot, I love going to the gym, I don't have time every day to go to the gym. But I make time because for me, that's a priority, I make time on my calendar, I have scheduled times where I'll go onto LinkedIn, I have scheduled podcasts like this where I produce content. It's not that you don't have time, it's not a high enough priority for you to allocate time to that. Everybody has the same number of hours in the week, it's really comes down to priorities with that. So anyone that tells me they don't have time, my immediate responses, it's just you don't see the value in this enough to make time, not that you don't have time to produce content.

[7:46] Brandi Starr:

And so what is the time commitment? So I know I've followed you on LinkedIn, I know you're very present and you put out some really good content. You do see some people that seem to post just for the sake of posting. And so how much time do you spend on an average day or week, really dedicating to producing this content and building your brand?

[8:12] Christopher Roche:   

So in terms of producing content, a lot of the content that I produce is from podcast interviews like this. So behind me right now I have cameras, I have lights, I have everything set up, so I'm recording this for my own content strategy. And that's the content strategy that I follow and the way that I've been able to produce a lot of content at scale is by following the kind of pillar events. So for me, a podcast interview is a pillar event. After this, I will have maybe 5 - 10 videos that I'll be able to produce, chop down and then share those on LinkedIn afterwards. So I can produce content at scale, because for me, I've been doing it for a while. If you're just getting started, I would say start posting on LinkedIn, just text things, text posts to begin with, and just spend half an hour in the morning sitting down with your coffee, and posting those out. You don't have to schedule them out for a week in advance, take that little bit of time. But overall, for me right now, I probably spend two hours a week producing content, and I have hundreds of videos a month that are getting produced because of the engine that I've built. And once you get to the point where you have that engine, producing content becomes a lot easier not to mention the fact you have an entire library of content for when I get sick, or when I'm on vacation and I don't have time to produce content, because I'm not in the studio or whatever, I can just pick one from last year, post that and be able to again, reshare that value.

[9:27] Brandi Starr:   

I was gonna say two hours a week when you say it that way, it's like, oh like, I can find two hours a week. And I do think that in some cases, the pushback on time is really the perception of the amount of time that it takes. Because you are right, it does appear for a lot of people that they are behind the computer on LinkedIn all day long. And it's like how do you get a job done? But what I'm hearing is is it really is about that, you know, common phrase working smarter and not harder.

[10:04] Christopher Roche:   

Exactly. And if you allow yourself to sit on LinkedIn all day, you will sit on LinkedIn all day. For me, I check it for 30 minutes in the morning, I check it with 30 minutes in the evening, that's my time on LinkedIn. I post LinkedIn videos from my phone, I posted one this morning. I sat having a coffee, I post it, I already have the video chopped up ready to go. Now I will say that when I say it takes me two hours to produce content, that's me sitting down recording content, I have a production team that edits all of the content for me. So if you are going to get into actually editing it, you'll see I produce on Tiktok for instance, different subtitles, we have crazy subtitles there, we have meme videos on LinkedIn, we have all these different formats that formats that I create, that's all done by my team. That's not me personally. So again, I don't want to leave people in kind of a false idea with those two hours. And it's something that I've been very much pushing with my own clients right now, CEOs, CMOs that I'm working with, where they're saying, hey, we want to produce content like you. We don't have time to do all of that but we have the two hours. So what do we do? So we've actually now started offering as a service. Basically, send us the video, we'll chop it up for you, we'll send it back to you. And that way we can augment the actual engine of the content creation. All you have to do is sit down and do the recording. And we'll chop that up and send you social media ready content, ready to go to allow you to take kind of some of that heavy lifting out of it. It's a new service that we've been offering, again, just for the last couple of months, just because we've seen that demand for I want to produce content, but I don't have a video editor. I don't know how to find a video editor. And we just don't simply have the resources in house to do this.

[11:38] Brandi Starr:   

And that is good perspective, because we don't want to make it seem like the two hours is for the whole shebang. And so the second sort of pushback that I hear is not everyone is extroverted or outgoing or comfortable really putting themselves in the public eye in that way. What's your feedback for those people?

[12:04] Christopher Roche:   

It's two things really. First and foremost, nobody is born with the ability to talk on camera. It's a skill, it's something that you learn. Again, I relate it back to working out. It's a muscle that you can build on. So if you look back towards the first couple of pieces of content that I was producing several years ago, I look back and I'm embarrassed. Because I have no idea what I'm talking about, I don't look confident, I don't have the setup, the audio quality isn't there, we didn't have the microphone, the cameras, the lights, all of that. And for me, it's embarrassing, but that's the way you should be when you produce content at the beginning. So if you're saying I'm not an extrovert, I don't feel comfortable on camera, I would challenge you to go and record a video, you don't have to post it but get comfortable producing content, because it is something that you will get better at. I have clients right now where we're doing video ads for them and we have CEOs who are talking about certain parts of it. The first recording we did is brutal. And then we give them feedback. And then we get to the second one, and then the third one. And then by the fourth and fifth one, we've got really great content that we can share across LinkedIn now. And they're building that personal brand. So I would say don't compare yourself. If you're looking at starting content, don't compare yourself to someone like myself or you Brandi. We've been doing this for years. So we're very comfortable with this. You're comparing yourself to a professional content producer. Compare yourself to what you're seeing with people that are starting off and maybe reach out to other people and say, hey I'm looking at doing this, can I get some feedback on this video. You need to start to get better, it's not something that you are just born with. So I would definitely take those first couple of steps and don't be embarrassed to fail really. And if anybody wants feedback, send me a video, I'll give you feedback on it. And I'll show you points that you can improve. And you'd be amazed how much the editing can remove filler words, can remove mistakes. It really is amazing. That's why again doing live videos like this, it's great. But for the majority of my content, it's all edited for that reason, because if I make a mistake, we just chop it out and we carry on going.

[13:59] Brandi Starr:   

And that I think is the other thing, it gives that perception of perfection. And people are like, oh I don't speak that polished. And it's like no, that's actually editing, that's not what anybody really does. So awesome. So and then the third sort of pushback that I hear most often is the struggle around what to say. Because we have had some -- I'll call them interesting social moments recently. We had the crying CMO or CEO, there were all these things that were -- it was like the talk of LinkedIn, so to speak, from all of these kind of LinkedIn fiascos, so to speak. And it seems like a lot of people are like see, these things happen because people are trying to stretch to figure out what to say. And they're like having to like really step outside of something meaningful to be able to have enough content. And I hear people say, I just don't have enough to say, to be consistent with this. So what's your thought there?

[15:18] Christopher Roche:   

It's a framework. You have to understand what the topics are. And I have a framework that I can share with people where, we break it down by certain topics and then we break them down by subcategory. So we'll go ahead and we'll plan a month's worth of content over an hour and a weekend, we'll plan all that content out, and then we know we have that content for that month. But if you start getting into these, I don't want to call them trends. But I know the crying CEO picture, it blew up on LinkedIn, it got shredded, because it was talking about how upsetting it was to make layoffs as the CEO, which I get it, but you're not the one losing a job. It's one of those where you can get into producing content that kind of follows the trends. But I think that's really an attention grab rather than providing value, you're trying to have that one video that goes viral on LinkedIn, gets a lot of engagement. For me, I'm more focused on producing value around what I'm an expert in. So I write down the different categories. I'm an expert in marketing, I'm expert in demand generation, I'm an expert in sales. These are things that I know I can produce content in on a regular basis. And it doesn't necessarily have to be individual creating a lot of that content with it. You can really go ahead and you can stretch that out and you can produce a lot of content on those topics. So for anyone that's looking at it, I would definitely focus on what your core competencies are, and then start to produce content, and then you'll start to then be able to produce more content after that.

[16:39] Brandi Starr:

So it sounds like taking the same framework that we do in our business, like we generally are having our teams to create an editorial calendar and to plan the content that we need to create as business. And you're saying, take that same approach with your personal brands and the content that you are creating, and really actually plan it out. And I do think, for myself, I think my biggest struggle is there's so many things that come natural to me, that I'm like well, everybody knows that, I don't need to put out a video or write a blog about that; everybody knows that. And that's not actually the case. Something that comes easy and natural are seemingly to me is the same thing that someone else may be struggling to solve for.

[17:29] Christopher Roche:

I think that's a huge misconception, what I know everybody else knows. And it's just simply not true. There are so many things that you are an expert on, that somebody that's one step behind you is looking for those answers. So if you're a marketing leader, at this point, there are junior marketers, there are marketing specialists, who are starting off their career or maybe a couple of years in, they're hungry for advice and you can be that person to produce content and advise them on that. Never underestimate how much you know, compared to what you assume everybody else knows. Because I've made that mistake when I produce content, and I almost produced it too high level in terms of what we're talking about, and then I get questions on very basic fundamentals of it. So oh, people don't understand even these parts of it. So now I need to break it down even simpler. And that's where again, the more content you produce, the more feedback you get, the more questions that are going to get asked, and then every question, turn that into another piece of content.

[18:21] Brandi Starr:   

And so I'm hearing all the positives, like everything we're talking about, like someone listening is probably like, I need to be doing this. And I need to plan to do this. Are there any scenarios where you would say, this is not as effective? Are there any industries roles, like any scenario, where you're like, oh, this probably isn't for you.

[18:45] Christopher Roche:

It depends on if you're an expert as to what you're talking about. I will say if you're an SDR and a attribution marketing software, if you don't understand how to do marketing and you're trying to talk to CMOS, and you go and produce content, if you're basically falsifying the information, and you don't really understand in depth what you're talking about at that point, then I can see the negatives of it. But if you're a marketing leader at that company, you should be producing content. It really comes down to if you're truly an expert, produce content on what you know, don't pretend to produce content on things you don't know about. So that's where I can see potential negatives with it. I will say, running a marketing agency, being the face of my company, we started about a year and a half ago, it's grown completely organic really because of my content. We've now run into this issue where we have so many inbound requests that when they say, hey, we're working with this person rather than working with Chris, there's not necessarily that understanding of it's not just Chris is the whole company, there's other people within the company as well. And that's something that we've been dealing with personally as we scale, is everybody wants to work with the face of the company, who they know who they trust through the videos and through where they've consumed the content. So then being able to pivot that into right now your work with this person, this is your project manager, this is going to be your marketing specialist who you're going to work with, that's been an interesting journey that we've been on in the past couple of months to really take this from just me to a small team, because not everybody on my team is producing content, because they're not as much of an expert in certain fields.

[20:18] Brandi Starr:   

And I've definitely experienced that. We had a scenario where early in our company's existence, one of our co-founders was really the face of the company. And he decided to step down, he wanted to semi-retire and do some different things. And so when he left, our niche was a little bit different then. I had people asking, like, is the company okay? Is it going to be alright? Are you going to still exist? And I was like, huh? We're thriving! It wasn't a negative departure, it was a, I'm at a place in my life where I want to do something different now. And so it did take a long time to really reposition and bring forth the brand of the organization. And for that reason, that is one place that I personally struggle with personal brands versus company brand, is I very much am one of the primary faces of our organization because of the podcast, and just naturally who I am. I've been personally branding myself before that was really a thing. And so at the same time, I also want to make sure for the reason that you said, there's only a handful of our clients that I personally work with. And so I have to make sure that I'm also elevating the company brand, and the other amazing minds that we have on our team, who are really specialists in these different areas, places where I kind of just have a basic knowledge, we've got people who they are experts in that. And so like, how do you balance the two in being able to make sure that you are bringing the company brand forward and strong, because at the end of the day, that's what pays the bills is when people buy from the company. And whether you're consultants like us, or you're in a SaaS model company, or manufacturing, wherever, at the end of the day people need to buy from the organization. How do you balance bringing forth your own brand, and your own knowledge and talents and content was really pushing forward, the company message the company brand? 

[22:57] Christopher Roche:   

I do think it is a fine balance between personal branding and company branding. And for me, the best way to attract significant awareness to the company is through multiple personal brands. In that instance, where you have a CEO that's looking to step down, they've been the face of the company, they need to be bringing in those next layers of personal brands of people around them to start to almost transition the face of the company off to other people. But a personal brand is always going to be better than a company brand. It's people buying from people, everybody wants to talk to a person. I would never discourage somebody from creating personal content on the fact that it may take away from the brand, because you're still attracting to the brand just because of your own personal brand. I think doing it at scale, having a culture where multiple people within the company believe in the mission and the value of producing content, that's the best way to really attract you to the company. Because every time you go on LinkedIn, you see all these different people from the same company, all producing great content, all talking about their area of expertise, that's such an attractive way to then go in and it makes me want to learn who is this company, it makes me want to go and click on the LinkedIn profile. I know that person represents that company, and I like that person. So now by association, I like that company. You can get into internal production of things like podcasts, a video series, a YouTube series, where you show almost behind the scenes of what's going on within the company. I think that's a great way to leverage personal brands within a company, and internal podcasts are great to be able to share knowledge and understanding. If you are in whatever SaaS company, being able to have multiple stakeholders from your company regularly talking about their area of expertise that allows you to attract the right people, but never make the mistake of trying to push everything to the brand because people are really going to buy from people. It's always been the way it's been. It's always been the way it is going forward. People don't buy from the brand they buy because they liked that individual that they've been having that relationship with.

[24:56] Brandi Starr:   

And so what happens when your personal brand, who you are as an individual, conflicts with the natural brand of the company? And I'll elaborate on what I mean. If I look at who I am as a person, I am very outspoken, I'm a bit quirky, I've always got sometimes off-color jokes, I love memes and pop culture and those sorts of things. And lucky for me, that who I am, as an individual is directly aligned to the company brand, right down to the company colors are orange and blue, and those are my two favorite colors. And so like, for me, it is very aligned. However, early in my career, I worked in insurance, for example, which is a very different environment. The company was one of those that have been around for hundreds of years, and was very clean and crisp. So much so like, in our writing, we didn't use contractions. You said cannot, you did not say can't. Whereas in my writing, I'm going to use like slang and slang references and hashtags and things like that. And so, at that point, I wasn't in a place in my career to really build a brand, a personal brand tied to my company. But if I think if I was at this place in my career at that company, there would be a direct conflict there if I were trying to be authentic in the content that I'm producing in who I am. I feel like it can almost get me in trouble associating that with the company brand. So have you seen that with other people? Or if someone's personal who they are, is very different than how their company tries to portray, is that risky?

[26:57] Christopher Roche:   

I think it is risky. If your personal brand is in a direct conflict with the company that you represent, I think there is a bigger question of why you working for that company? Is it a good fit culturally? Probably not. So I think yes, I think that's almost like a subsection of finding a cultural fit. Because if you're in that situation where you're afraid to produce content -- because I've been in that situation. I've been in situation with previous companies where I was not the CEO, but I was the face of the company, I produced a ton of content, and I'm getting told, hey, you kind of get in too big, you need to slow down, we need to focus everything back to the company, even though I'm bringing and attracting all of the clients because they know my personal brand. And you've been in that situation. And for me, I just at that point said, listen, this isn't a good fit them because I'm trying to attract clients through content, I'm trying to share educational content, I'm trying to build brand affinity. And if that's a threat to almost the leadership position, then this just isn't culturally a good fit. And it stems so much further than personal brand versus company brand, do they conflict? If they conflict, everything else is going to conflict. So you're probably not in the right position. And early on in your career, it's more difficult to be able to say that. As you become more of an expert in the field that you're in, as you have more confidence, as you work with more companies, you'll find that you will attract the right kind of companies to you. And if you're truly investing in personal branding over the course of a longer period, the moment you say, hey, I'm looking at doing this now I want to go and you know, work in this kind of field, or I'm leaving my company and I want to start consulting, I want to go and find that other company, those companies that have been following you, those individuals that have been following you for the past two or three years, they're going to reach out because they will align with your personal brand with the type of content you produce. So you will attract like-minded to you by being authentic, the moment you try and stick to a particular content because that's what your company is, you lose authenticity. And it to me, it's a waste of time to get into that, you have to be authentic with the content you produce.

[29:00] Brandi Starr:   

I completely agree. And so my last question is you've thrown out some tips as we've been going along of how, but I want to make sure to give you an opportunity to offer up any advice on what are your tips. If I'm listening and I really don't have much of a LinkedIn or content presence as an individual, what your advice there?

[29:27] Christopher Roche:   

My advice, first and foremost is write down 10 topics that you think you can talk about. It can be anything, it can be anything from like -- For me, it could be marketing, sales, demand generation, college soccer, working out, it could be anything. Go and write down 10 topics and then go and record a couple of videos from that and get some practice and then go on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn, send me the video, and I'll provide feedback for you. It can literally just be an iPhone, just stick in front of your face, record the video, see how it comes out and just get a feel for what it's like to produce concept because its such a benefit if you can execute this at scale. It's not going to happen overnight, you're not going to go from zero to where myself and you are in one week, it's going to take time to build it up. But take that first step. And again, I'm more than happy to provide feedback for people, again, just to encourage them a little bit further to produce that content. And then from there, go and produce another couple of videos, and then post on LinkedIn and just see what happens. You're probably going to get very few engagements to start off with, but don't worry about it. I was talking with a client the other day where they said, hey, we're producing videos, we're only getting 400 views on LinkedIn when we produce a video. We're getting very few likes, we're getting 400 views. Is it worth it? And I said, If I gave you a speaking opportunity right now, where I said, alright, we're going to go into a room, and you can have 90 seconds to talk to 400 people, would you take it? He'd say, oh absolutely, of course I do that. I said, that's the exact same situation, only this is on social media. So don't underestimate the power of being in front of 400 people consistently. Even if they're only watching 50% of the video. Eventually, they're going to start to build that relationship with you. And now when clients come inbound to me, I get on a call, on a zoom call with them like this, the first thing they say is, hey, I feel like I know you. Even though we've never met, we've never had a conversation say hey, I feel like I know you. We just renovated an RV? How's the RV going? How's the home office? Things that I produce; I talk a lot about my own life as well on LinkedIn, because I think it's really valuable to show a human behind the brand as well. But the first question people ask right now is how's the RV, which to me is hilarious, because it's something that we've been renovating, we've produced a bit of content on it. But again, people really buy into you, and then they want to work with you.

[31:40] Brandi Starr:

I was going to say now I feel like I got to go find the videos of the RV.

[31:43] Christopher Roche:

Oh, you got to check it out. It's pretty cool. Yeah, you got to check it out.

[31:47] Brandi Starr:

Awesome! Well, normally, I always ask for a one thing, but I think you gave us the one thing that we should do. And starting with the 10 topics, I do think that that is a great place to start in just thinking about where could you talk all day. Because I think we do all have those topics that, even if a stranger in a grocery line brings it up, you could totally talk to them for hours upon hours about that topic. And it's like, think about what are those 10 things and really starting there. So I love that and I have totally enjoyed our discussion, but that's our time for today. Before we go though, tell our audience how they can connect with you.

[32:36] Christopher Roche:

Best way to connect with me is going to be the LinkedIn or TikTok. I produce a ton of content on LinkedIn.  always say TikTok is kind of my library of content, if you will, because it's just all the videos. All the podcasts that I go are all chopped up and on there. So if you ever looking to binge out on marketing, TikTok is definitely a great place to follow a lot of the content that I produce. And then if you're interested in learning more about Catalyst, go to our website, which is catalystconsulting.services.

[33:01] Brandi Starr:

Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me Chris. I really appreciate it. 

[33:08] Christopher Roche:

Yep, it was a pleasure. Thank you. 

[33:09] Brandi Starr:

And I hope everyone has enjoyed my conversation today with Chris. I can't believe we're at the end already. I will see you next time.

[33:21] Outro: 

You've been listening to Revenue Rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning has just begun. Join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenuerehab.live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at Revenue Rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.