Tegrita at Ten: Innovations & Universal Lessons

Intro VO  00:05

Welcome to revenue rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:34

Hello, hello hello and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host brandy star. And we have a truly amazing episode for you today. I am joined by the Tegrita executive leadership team, Mike Keller, Rolly, Kenan and Max Stoddard. Mike is our co founder and is the firm's principal technologist. Mike graduated from the famed Toronto metropolitan university and wasted no time in building a 20 year career covering all angles of marketing technology consultancy. Rolly is a born leader and the key growth strategist at Tegrita. As our CRO Rolly brings 25 years of diverse experience at the likes of LinkedIn, Oracle, Gallup and the US Olympic volleyball teams graduating with his MBA and marketing from Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management, Rolly has some unique experience in his career, including making over 500,000 cold calls. Max is our Chief of Staff and is passionate about enabling growth and success. Max loves seeing anything run smoothly and people achieve more because of her contributions. Max has spent most of her career working for startups within established companies embarking on something new and in a traditional industries amid disruption. She has mentored many colleagues and has helped others build their careers. Mike Rolly, Max, welcome to revenue rehab, your session begins now. Thank you. So excited to have you all I think, you know, it's always great when we can get our executive team together. And we'll tell you guys why I brought you all here shortly. But you know, I like to break the ice with a little Woosah moment I call buzzword. banishment. So Mike, I'll start with you. What buzzword? Would you like to get rid of forever?

Mike Geller  02:42

Let me get rid of taking things offline. taken offline, even though it stays online, just elsewhere?

Brandi Starr  02:51

Yeah, cuz we pretty much do everything online. So okay, we won't take anything offline for today's conversation. Rolly, what about you,

Rolly Keenan  03:02

my as become a buzzword, which is why it bothers me. And that is the word diversity that people throw around and use it in place of accurate, precise wording. They just throw it around as a way to sort of show that they're thinking about others or something. So I that bugs me, when people use constantly use it in the wrong way?

Brandi Starr  03:31

Yeah, I'd say that is one that is probably most often used incorrectly. Max, what about you? Which word are we putting in the box?

Max Stoddard  03:40

I'm totally gonna say diversity. So now I have no way. So for slightly different reasons, but I'm gonna throw in quiet quitting. And it's not because of that phrase, but because of all it entails of the idea that people need to have a mindset towards almost quitting to have a job that doesn't demand too much of their lives from them. So

Brandi Starr  04:07

yes, and so we are going to take diversity, quiet, quitting and taking things offline and we will put them in the box. And we will not use those terms, at least for the next 30 minutes or so. So now that we've gotten that off our chest, I asked you guys here because it is our 10th anniversary. I feel like I shouldn't have some, you know, some streamers or some confetti but then I'd have to clean that up. And so thinking about so I've been here nine years coming up on my or my ninth anniversary and a couple months. And so most of the company's history and I look at how we have evolved, and it's pretty remarkable how you know what we have done as such a small organization without taking on out Aside investment in growing the business and making Tegrity a great place to work. And so I wanted to have you all here because as I, you know, network and talk to other revenue leaders, there's so many times where we're not talking about the actual practice of doing marketing or sales or any of the revenue functions. A lot of the challenges that revenue leaders are seeing really are around growing the business, managing their teams, being leaders, being fair, trying to think about others and be good humans. And there's so much of that, that we have incorporated in our business, I want for our 10 year anniversary as a way to give back to our community to share some of those lessons. So really excited. And as you guys know, I always believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, and it gives us purpose. And so I'd love to hear from each of you, what you would like our audience to take away from this discussion today. And, uh, let you guys whoever's got the first answer, you can jump in with what your thoughts are.

Mike Geller  06:17

I guess I'll go first, I would say that things are usually a journey, rather than a single action to a solution. It's usually a series of steps that, you know, may take months or years before you see the result that you want. And it's those sorts of incremental things that kind of gets you to where you want to go. So it's not just one thing. It's, it's everything added up, that that would be my takeaway. Okay.

Max Stoddard  06:55

Yeah, I can kind of build on that, where I would say that, I think a lot of places, especially, you know, small companies starting out, sometimes they succeed by accident, or even in spite of themselves. But that the key for winning on purpose is the magic of the four of us of having a team that is dedicated directionally and ethically to the same ideals. And that has a variety of strengths and experience to get there. And that is, willingness and willingness to like fight for when you're like, No, I'm sure about this. At the same time willing to solicit so there when there's a team that is sharing a North Star that makes the difference.

Brandi Starr  07:46

And Rolly, I'll say

Rolly Keenan  07:48

what I would love, the takeaway to be would be for anyone listening to consider that there is another option, other than growing at all costs.

Brandi Starr  08:02

Yeah, and I'll piggyback on that is that you can grow and keep your conscious. Because I do think that that growth at all cost, some of the hard decisions that people have to make that are truly just in the best interests of the business, with no regard to all the humans, you know, so many different things that we see that, you know, people don't always go to sleep at night with a real clear conscious in a lot of companies. And I think that is one thing that I have always been most proud of, is even when we've had to make tough decisions. I've never lost a night of sleep, because my conscience was not clear about a decision. And, you know, we see a lot of cynicism, especially in corporate America right now. And just giving people some of that hope that you can have a leadership team that can lead and grow a business and still, you know, going to your point, be ethical and purposeful, and think about the people. So, Mike, I want to start with you in just where Tegrita came from in, you know, when you started the company, what did you hope this organization would be?

Mike Geller  09:30

Yeah, that's a good question. So it's a little bit of a sort of two stage situation, because, you know, I started sort of my gallery works before that, and then working with my co founder Kareem, at the time we created Tegrity. And we created it because we wanted to build a consultancy that's based on the principle of integrity, you know, meaning so that's where integrity comes from. Because we didn't see that a lot in the consulting space. So you know that that we wanted to have a consultancy that people would not feel kind of locked in by we wanted to share knowledge, we wanted to enable all the clients that we worked with, to do more, kind of stemming from the belief that the more you give, the more you have to give.

Brandi Starr  10:30

Yeah, I echo that. And I can remember, when I started, both you and Corinne would always echo the statements, be fair to yourself, be fair to the client, be fair to the company, and just really thinking about things holistically, and doing what's right by everyone, and not necessarily what is most profitable. And so, you know, I think about Tegrita in different evolutions of, you know, Tegrita 1.0, is where the company started. And when I joined, we started to grow a little bit, and I kind of call that 2.0. And then, you know, Rali came on shortly thereafter, and then max. And, you know, if I look back, when Rolly started, we're a whole different company now. And so that's really where I want to focus less on the early years and more on the last four or five years, because I think that that's where a lot of our key lessons and growth have come from. And so I want to start with talking about what we sell, and who we sell to, because this is something that I think a lot of companies as they grow, they start off with a product or service that they want to get into the markets, they have their ICP, you know, their service offering or product offering. And then there is a growth point where I think some people kind of go off the rails, you see this a lot in tech, where you start stuffing in this feature and that feature, and we want to be everything to everybody, to the point where you see some technologies that will lose market share by trying to expand too broad, too fast, etc. And so I want to start Rolly with you. Because I remember when you joined the organization, you spent a good deal of time really assessing where we were, and how the business was run primarily from a revenue perspective. But I think you kind of looked at everything holistically. And so thinking about what we sell, and how that has evolved, because you've been a huge influence in, you know, we need to be putting this out there, we need to market this expertise, like, what's been your takeaway? Or what was your thought process, from when you started to how you've helped to drive the organization around, you know, what we're selling today, because at the end of the day, we are we've always sold ours, you know, that hasn't changed, that'll never change. But how we've gotten to market is really different. So I want to start with you there around the what we sell. Sure.

Rolly Keenan  13:17

Well, to put some, some more context around what you just described, when I came into the business, my sort of core background even before I was formally one, my core background formally as a research consultant, meaning I'm not the kind of consultant that comes in and says, Why No, because I've been in this business. And I know how to do this. And this is how it works. My first step is I interviewed everybody in the business and wanted to understand, you know, what they're doing, what's going well, what's not, and what do they want to be doing and what's in the way of them getting to do that. And so I started there to understand the business in general, because on the surface, we were an aliqua consulting business, which spreads into other things. But that's, that's not enough. I wanted to know, what we were doing and what I came. What came out of that, if you guys remember is I felt like we had a much higher end group of people. So we had skills and talent and interest in doing things well beyond a single platform. And so I kind of came out of that as I don't think we should have a sales team, because that seems like a better fit for lower end work. I want strategists I want folks that have selling talent and Have them be a lead in strategy for clients, I think clients would like that better in terms of what we're doing. And so I felt like, even before we did it, I felt like what we were selling was technical expertise around revenue. Call that marketing call that sales, but a lot of technical knowledge, expertise around platforms for sure, but also process. And people, you know, some of the work we were doing kind of leaned that way. And so it evolved. And of course, we're doing way more than aliqua now. And I, but I felt like it was a natural progression. From what, who was on the team, what we were doing and what everyone was interested in doing.

Brandi Starr  15:50

Anybody have anything they want to add to that? Um, I think, you know, the lesson that I take away from that rally is sort of the opposite of how most companies drive their product or service offering. You know, a lot of the experts all focus on looking at the market, and figuring out where in the market you want to play, like and build your product or your service to meet that market demand of where you want to be. And what we've done and you know, a lot largely from the way that you've driven us is exactly what you said in, you know, there obviously has to be a market need, like that is kind of a given. But you talked about focusing on the skills, talents and interest of the people within the organization. And so it really is that tapping into, where are you strongest, and then figuring out where that fits in the market versus what other people typically do is they pick a place in the market that they want to be, or that they want to grow into. And one thing that I know, that we have consistently done is let our clients drive our service offering. So not just the addressable market, but the people who already are happily working with us. And then also letting our team who is seeing what we're doing, seeing what their own interests are, where, you know, we can grow, letting both of those things come together to create where that fit is and where we grow. And I think that's a key lesson especially like for those that are in product marketing, and you know, people who are driving what a company is offering is, there's an opportunity to sort of flip that process on its head and look internally first, to figure out where you have the greatest potential to grow.

Rolly Keenan  17:57

Yeah, and I think just as a quick comparison, if you think about firms take outside investment that tends to drive toward managing the financial health of the business. And that's it. So it'll help the financial health if we get into this market. So let's invest, get some salespeople, do some marketing. So and you feel that when you win, it's a lot very active in SAS. And so you feel that, like we just bought SAS platform, it's Egret Oh, we just bought one to use for for some of what we're doing and in the selling of of our work. And you can tell like the people that are talking to us don't know anything about the, the what their product is meant for. They kind of know some features and facts and, and it's like, okay, so it's not like a business that elapsed, it's a business being built to be sold. And so that it's a really different scenario. You know, I didn't if Mike, you know, I left it out, but one of my elements, I don't know if you guys remember this was I got to interview everybody, I also need to see where the founder wants to go. So if Mike was like, I want to exit I want to get out of this, then I would have done something different in terms of growing the business and, and I wouldn't have cared so much about what are people interested in like, well, who cares, we're not going to really have a job and like, but that we're building a company to, to last. And that's a different underlying motivation.

Brandi Starr  19:44

And I think that's another really key point like in a number of episodes on revenue rehab, we have talked about career progression as an executive and you know, where you want to go next and how you choose, you know, Whether you want to we did one episode with Gen steel on working with PE firms and whether that's right for you. And, you know, if you want to go fractional or all these sorts of different things, and I think you hit on a key question, as you are choosing a role is to understand where the founder of an organization or the CEO, if it's a larger company or the board, like, where do they want to go? Because to your point, it does drive the business decisions. And it drives the success of our executives. And Max, I want to kind of turn this question to you. Because I know when you joined the mission of Tiger into the direction that Mike wanted the organization to go to go, the fact that we are not a grow at all costs, like that was important to you to where you made some individual sacrifices in order to take this role. And so thinking about those executives who are always trying to navigate their career, and figure out what's the right next step, I'd love to hear your perspective on how those things impacted your desire to be a part of this executive team.

Max Stoddard  21:14

Yeah, I think my decision was grounded in the advice I give anyone who's thinking about a career transition. And I think ultimately what we try to offer our team. And that's I think about how I want to live, and how work will fit with that and not about what I want to do. And how I want to live fit with Tegrity. I didn't want to live going to an office every day where what I wore and how I looked was as important as my the quality of my work. Or being present at certain hours was more important than other measures of dedication. That was all of that was more important to me than money because I didn't take a pay cut Tegrity. So Tegrity fit. It's what we talk about a lot in different places. Usually, for me my role in hiring have. And I think in my last podcast appearance, I talked about vanishing work life balance, because work is a necessary part of life. We all have to earn to live for the most part in our North American cultures, right? So rather than trying to find a balance, it's how does it fit with how I want to live? What my days look

Brandi Starr  22:39

like? Yeah, and I think that's a really key lesson, like most people go into choosing a roll, looking at the salary and the stock options, and you know, all of those, those typical things, and you don't think about how you want to live, because, you know, I have no doubt that all of us could technically go somewhere else and make significantly more money. But that also comes with higher stress levels and a lot more uncertainty around you know, whether you're still going to have a job or you know, whether you like the people that you work with, whether you've got psychological safety and can do the things you're best at, like all of these sorts of things that aren't always thought about. And you know, that is a really key thing in how you attract talent, but also how you make a decision around your own, you know, your own company.

Max Stoddard  23:35

I would boil it down to as well, like, we've touched on this in a number of places of what a very typical corporate culture would office culture is like, in North America. And I would say that I kind of would boil it down to, we're not asking anyone to squeeze themselves into that here. Because we don't require that of ourselves that we are better for being all the parts of us that get headaches that have families that have respond to emergencies that have joys that have side projects, like those things make us better. And we don't have to squeeze into a narrow definition of what we're supposed to be to be good at our jobs.

Brandi Starr  24:18

And I want to come back to the team and hiring in a second. But talking about, you know, creating like founder led organizations, Mike, my question for you is, I know from just hearing some of the woes of you know, executive counterparts at other places, dealing with founders can be very difficult. And you know, because at the end of the day, the founder whether their opinion direction makes any sense. They are the founder of the organization and you gotta roll with it. And one of the things that I have always admired and appreciated about you is you never Are let the fact that this is your company, drive the decisions that you make. And I know I have seen you go with decisions that are best for the business that are not necessarily, you know, in your best personal interest. You know, we've had we all like a good debate between the four of us to, you know, settle on the right direction. And not once in almost nine years, have I ever heard you use the parent, because I said, so, you know, because this is my company, ever. And that is I, you know, I imagine I've never, you know, been a founder with an executive team. I imagine that that takes a lot of focus, dedication, humbling. And so I'd love to hear your perspective as a founder in how you balance the, this is what I want as a human, because we all have our I want my way. Versus, I am going to be able to step back and say, I've got a team that I trust. And that, you know, we are collectively making decisions as an executive team, because we don't have a CEO we never have, like there is, you know, there's never been that one person at the top. It's kind of unofficially you because you own the company. But we do truly operate as a governing body and not people who are making a recommendation to you know, this higher beings, so to speak. And so I'd love to hear just your perspective in how you balance that you know, what your thought processes there. Because I do think that this is a place that if there's any founders that are listening, where it's almost like a little bit of check yourself before you wreck yourself, because there are a lot of founders that become the downfall of their companies based on their egos, and you don't really have that.

Mike Geller  27:03

Yeah. So there's a couple of things there. One, I, I believe that I don't know everything. And so I try to surround myself with people who know more than me, especially in areas that I don't specialize. And to kind of overriding that goes counter to the first point, right? Why have people who are experts in other areas, and then, oh, well do this anyways, because I said, so. It just seems kind of stupid to me. And the other, you know, kind of go into the emotional aspect of it. I, I tend to have a long term view of things. And so even though I may prefer a particular decision in the short term, I know that in the long term, it's better for us to have a decision that gets consensus, so that we end up in a better result. In general, I believe in collaboration wholeheartedly, like the I don't know, what what's, what's the phrase, kind of a power of many over one. I feel like we can do better, we can arrive at better decisions. But also because we challenge ourselves, we kind of not necessarily fight but let's say battle for an outcome that's, that's best for everyone. Not for one. I think that's just kind of how that operates. So I don't look at it as, as, as me I look at it as us. And because of that the idea of something for me specifically doesn't really cross my mind very often.

Brandi Starr  28:58

Okay. And I think, you know, what I'm hearing in that is, is a perfect segue into talking about hiring and the team. Because the fact that you have an executive team that you trust, and that is experts in their own, you know, own lanes, you're able to take that collective us approach. And I think that really only happens when there is trust and confidence in the people on the team. And, you know, if I look at, you know, the nine years that I've been here, we've had ups and downs in terms of, you know, quality of the team turnover, you know, we went through a period where it was just like, who like it seemed like every other week, there was someone leaving and that was, you know, it's rough when you have to terminate someone or when you have someone that's great and they leave on their own and you know, since then, we have made a lot of effort between the four of us to really attract and hire people into roles that they are naturally suited for. And we hire very differently. And so I want to start by Max, I know you do a great job at kind of summarizing our approach to hiring. And this is probably one of the biggest lessons that I see that other people when they hear about how we hire, you know, the level of retention that we have, as such a small company. It's truly impressive. And so, I'd like to have you first summarize for those listening, because most people have, you know, unless you've interviewed here, you have no insight into what that looks like, in what is our approach to hiring. And how do we get that so right.

Max Stoddard  30:52

I can't take complete credit for it, since I was proof of concept rarely use it. And that was the first person in under the that new approach, but I will say I've added to and helped refine it over time. The so the other line, the general steps. So the first thing is that everybody knows this, when we post a job we have we employ what we call hiring stories. That was one of the things I built, built that tells people what to expect. So transparency is huge for us. We start out with a quick survey screener for people who have resumes that align with the roles we're looking for. And that survey screener is done with our partner who does detailed one on one interviews at a later stage. Basically, what it does is you spend two minutes, and we will know if you definitely cannot pass our other screening, which saves people time. Not just us, but candidates because we all know the candidate experience can be horrific. So after that, we invite people to do a scenario. And we're very sensitive about the scenario because we know there's a lot of free work asked for out there. So we always ask people to try to work on a problem that we've already solved. So we can't use that work, we also ask them to max cap their time at a certain amount so that we're not asking for too many hours. And we a lot of our process is mutual. So we are also asking them to look at it because this is what the job will entail. And so that helps people look at and go, Oh, this is not actually the work I want to do or gay, this is me. And then we move on those whom pass the scenario go on to that interview that I mentioned with our partner, and that screens for talent. So we've talked about talent already as being really important to what we do. Rolly, I'll probably let you say more about that, since this is that was definitely the biggest impact that you've had on the whole process is that idea of talent.

Rolly Keenan  33:00

Sure. Yeah. So just understanding what someone can't be taught, but they're naturally good at and that starts with us. Figuring out what are the demands of that role? So we have specific roles within the business. You know, we have experts in our technology function that are experts at different many different things. And the work that we do, we have a client engagement group, that's a different job that is organizing and, and keeping all the tasks and projects moving in on time. And and that's a dynamic process. So that's a whole different kind of thinking. And then we have a strategy team, which is as close as we get to a sales team. And that's very commercial thinking. Courageous kind of personality. And these things are not teachable. They are straight talent. And so we've figured out those demands, we figure out what questions can we ask that someone who's very talented, which would answer that question very differently than someone who's not. I had, there's more to that. But that's how we know how to do that. But, but that's how it works. And when someone can say, yes, in my job at Tegrity, I get to do what I do best every day. They're going to be way more productive. They're going to be more engaged, they're going to stay longer with us. And it really just changes you know, we talked about this all the time between the four of us, but it changes what we do in our role, like we will be here Handling completely different problems. If we didn't focus on talent, we would, our problems would be different and not as fun honestly. So we were always working on things like, you know, I mean, it's all you know, like one of our sort of out there things about flexible work is four day workweeks are, you know, like we worked solving these kinds of problems, because we've got people who are very good at their job. And so, and not that we don't have other sort of common issues to work on, we do, but they're very few far between compared to what others in our roles are dealing with.

Max Stoddard  35:42

We round out that process with everyone, every candidate that passes that interview getting to talk to this whole team, the executives, and then the final round is they get to talk to some of their potential peers and decide if those are people they'd want to work with or not. I could talk about our hiring process and all the pieces around it for ages, because part of why we get the chances rally side to solve different problems is that we are so thoughtful about why we're doing all of these pieces about getting in front of things that people are often dealing with, afterwards, that there's there's so much thought and principle and planning that goes into why we do our process that way that I could talk about it for ages, but if so feel free to ask questions, if it's something specific you want me to touch on, but I'm gonna stop. And

Brandi Starr  36:37

I know, one of the things that is a core part of that process is also being proactively anti bias. And so not focusing on the D word. Because you know that that is a whole different, like, it just, we won't even we've already talked about that, but just really removing some of those common biases from the process. And so I'd also I get asked that question a lot, because sometimes people want to really make sure that they are attracting different types of talent, and removing those biases from the process. But they don't actually understand what that really looks like. And I know Max, like I've had some aha moments from things that you've said about, you know, job descriptions, or you know, where we're posting and things like that. And so, I'd love to hear you, you know, share some of your advice for those leaders who are not an HR but are trying to do their part in removing some of the bias from the hiring process. Yeah,

Max Stoddard  37:46

the first thing I'm going to say is probably going to be pretty unpopular, but it's the most important for being actively anti oppression in the workplace. And that's pay transparency. There is no more straightforward, simple way to ensure a level of equity and equality without having transparent compensation. So we start that in our hiring process that is in the job description, in detail how our compensation is structured, and it does not vary outside of specific criteria that are very easy to follow. And that are very, again, very transparent. So not every individual has exactly the same salary because not every individual is exactly the same. But we have bases, we do bumps, which is a whole other we're different in our compensation too. And but how we describe that the bumps are also in categories that are easy for people to follow. The next thing would be the decision pivot points. So the I described are first three steps. And those first three steps mean that no one at Tegrity has seen a face that they could possibly add bias to their evaluation. We don't know much about these people, aside from that they have passed an initial screening and what they do the work that they have put into their, their scenario. So we do often include videos because we're online. So we will have seen that at that stage. And that's the last piece, but our interviewer at the next stage also does things by phone. So they have not seen these people either. And we consistently interrogate our questions for are they introducing a bias? Are they introduced? Are we asking for things that favor certain populations? So for example, one of the things that I was really strict on that allows people with disabilities or certain responsibilities at home is that we do not require travel even for the roles where we used to think it was necessary. We will say it's preferred and that accommodations can be made. If we want I think the world has learned we can do a lot remotely. So also the fact that we offer true remote work, that's who we are, we don't have an office, that opens up possibilities to populations who do not have access to this kind of work, either because they have geographically where they are located, that there are not employers near them, or because of what their life or their identities entail that that makes it impossible.

Brandi Starr  40:33

Yeah, I can remember a while back having a candidate from Mississippi, and in the conversation, it was, you know, the fact that we were remote was a huge deal, because there's not the same kind of technical roles in the small town in Mississippi, in which they lived. And, you know, if you think about, like, a lot of the population in Mississippi is, you know, lower income, generally, minorities, you know, it is a population that doesn't have the same just opportunity based on geography, because, you know, not a state where a lot of big companies are like, oh, yeah, let's put our corporate headquarters in Mississippi. And so it is things like that, that I do think, really goes a long way in, you know, taking that stuff out.

Rolly Keenan  41:29

Yeah, I can add to the anti bias thing, just a little bit, just to say, because sometimes anti bias takes on some very common categories, which I think a lot of which Max's kind of breakdown, covers, covers that kind of stuff, like who you are your background, your privilege. But there's also some subtle things that we do in that process. You know, like we don't, we don't say, Hey, we're not going to look at your resume, unless you've gone to a four year college, or, you know, we do things like that. And then even more subtle of, I see it every day, I'm sure you guys do too of, well, they've got to be a cultural fit. And while and a lot of people will say the culture, cultural fit, I'll decide when I talked to them. And really, unfortunately, even though they would argue with me, many of them, many of these people, I would say this, they would argue that I'm wrong. They're actually saying, Are they like me? You know, do I like the way they talk? Oh, they're a good fit. You know, and honestly, a lot of the culture fit, which we know from doing this, for many years now, is a talent thing. You know, our culture has 100% remote, while that has its own kind of thing to it about being independent and self, self driven. And, and you don't need someone standing over you telling you what to do next. And you know, that kind of stuff. There's, you know, some things about Tegrity that are important to us in terms of values, that are really kind of connected to talent. So we figure that out. In our structured interview, which is, you know, later in the process, to decide whether this person, not only hat can do the job, but can they do it here. And that's different than I want to see if they're a cultural fit, we'll see if I like them. And that's, I think, a mistake. And that's, you know, you get you'll see that too, like I think it's, I think we could all have a have like a we can make a game of it. Let's go to some companies, and look at how all their people look the same. Right. And that's not, that's not a coincidence. It's because they went through an interview process where they want people that look like that act like same. Yeah. Yeah. So there's some, some of that we clear up, you know, we want to make sure they can do the work and do it here. And then they talk to us. We handle that. And we do. And by that point, we have kind of look out for us, you know, like Well, here's a couple of things that are not perfect, but good enough to work here. We already know before we talk to them at the stage that the ELT interviews them where you know, they can do the job and they can do it here. And so it's more of like little things especially if we have more than one candidate that made it that far and we sometimes don't only one out of 3000 people make it but but yeah, so that I think that's a the fact that we don't do a I like you interview is pretty, pretty big deal that you know, I think I think a lot of people if I told them that They would say, Oh, we do that, too. And they that's they don't.

Brandi Starr  45:06

Yeah, I can remember early in my career when I was, you know, first becoming a part of the hiring process, you know, not as the hiring manager. But you know, as one of the stakeholders that was doing interviews, one of the things that I was told as sort of a litmus test of if I'd want this person was the what, I have a beer with them. I mean, I don't actually drink beer, but it's that, you know, it's that notion. And for some roles, that person is probably going to have that personality, like if you think about for our strategy team, like, the natural personality that comes with those talents, often is like, oh, yeah, they'd be great to, you know, have dinner with or whatever. But if we think about Mike's team, and the technologist, those talents aren't always the same outgoing extrovert, like, oh, I want to hang out with them. But they're absolutely amazing. And so, you know, that was one thing that I really had to learn. Is that it, you know, it doesn't matter if I want to hang out with them, you know, maturing as a leader is like, can they really do this job and be happy doing it and be effective doing it and add value to the organization? And you know, are they nice people? I mean, because like, we have a Don't be an asshole rule. Like, that's our general, you know, company policy and how we treat each other is don't be an asshole. So you know, it's not that you want people who are unfriendly or jerks working for you. But it doesn't matter if you want to have a beer with them.

Max Stoddard  46:48

Right? Yeah, I want to expand on that a little bit and go back to little go back to what I was talking about before, that putting that on there, smashes apart those social requirements that we add up to professionalism. And a lot of places is someone's ability to conduct themselves on a video interview with Pete for people they've never met before, who all have see in front of their titles is not the best litmus test, ability to do a job. Right. But that is very much the broken system that we have. So by not we don't, you know, we don't show up to those interviews, like Rolly is in a T shirt right now, we don't show up to those interviews in anything that we wouldn't wear in a normal day, so and we don't ask people to dress for the job they want. Because no one's looking at them here either like, so there's a lot of these places of whether it's person ability, or certain personality traits, or someone's ability to fake it long enough to get through an interview process. We our hiring process, and how we work removes a lot of those things that makes this a place possible for people to work possible for people to get hired, regardless of their background. And what they've had access to up to that point.

Brandi Starr  48:08

And I want to shift gears a little bit, the last sort of topic that I want to dive into is what I think is super sexy, which is process. Um, and, you know, Mike, I, I will start with you. Because I know, you know, in the early days of the company, there was a lot of figuring it out as we go along. And not a lot of process or rigor behind the way things were done. And as we grew and took on more, you know, clients and the team got bigger, that became a necessity and that has evolved over time. So I'd like your thoughts on how has process shaped the organization.

Mike Geller  48:59

Feel like I can draw a process flow diagram to outline an answer you. So I would actually say that there's always been process is just, it's, it's always been siloed or not communicated are not repeatable, right. So how do you scale process? So before we didn't have scalable process now, we've learned how to make it scalable, how to make it repeatable, teachable, and consistently applied, like consistency and being able to do the same thing over and over again, is critical to what we do. And that's impossible about process. Like it's an and it also stifles growth and stifles scale. Right. So if you have a process that is understood by everyone who needs to follow it, then everyone can follow if you have the proper tools to know where this process It is and how to use it, then you can do so. But if you have, you know, a process that lives on your hard drive or on your desktop somewhere or in your mind, sure you have your own personal process, but that's kind of where it stops. So having something that's kind of reusable and share, and I can scalable, my favorite word is critical. 

Brandi Starr  50:36

And so Rolly, I want to redirect Mike's answer to you, because I know exactly what he's saying in terms of repeatable, scalable, you know, the the operational rigor, those things have become a competitive differentiator for us. And you in driving the revenue team, and you know, how we're going to market how we're talking to our customers and prospects, from, you know, the highest strategic level, how have you seen process shaped the business?

Rolly Keenan  51:17

I feel like without the process, and we're talking about process of how we, you know, something, some something that seems so simple, like, a client asks us to do something, well, now there's a flow of work, as we call it, to take that request and turn it into action, and deliverables and all that and revenue essentially, for us. To like, you know, right, before we hopped on this, how do we scope this work? And are we following that process, and, and so that the client knows that, okay, if they want something new, this is how it works, we go through these three steps. And then we always have this, and you can always make a decision. And, and so the process has all these kind of different flavors. And I feel like, from where we were to where we are now, the business is very layered, there's a lot to what we do, which for clients means they can feel safer, they can feel like there's more value with Tegrity. Like, they're not just, they don't just take my voicemail and start working. Like there's a process to how things get done. And then if something goes wrong, it's easy to go back into the process and say, where did we go wrong here. And so there becomes this like depth to how we compete with others in our space, there's some depth to the value that we bring clients. There's depth for our internal team. So they don't feel like they're just randomly doing things. They feel like, Hey, this is how I work. This is, this is the track I stay on. Because I know that the other function is on this track. And so here's where we meet, and I don't need to worry about it. So it brings like, control and comfort and engagement to everyone on the team. So I feel like the processes that we have, are certainly can we can prove that they help. And that's really smart and all these things. But reality is the the true power of it is how it affects us how it affects our clients. And how it keeps us keeps us going. I really feel like a lot of what we've built in, in brandy, you're the head of all that, you know, keeps keeps us like there's not a lot of chance of us of slipping backwards. We might stop for a little bit as we're trying to get our footing. But we don't feel like we're always starting over from zero. Like we've built up all this foundation. And I feel like that's that's what it is, from my perspective as a CRO.

Brandi Starr  54:15

And Max, I want to pose a similar question to you because you're kind of my counterpart in developing a lot of our processes. And, you know, I feel like when I'm talking to other executives, I am always touting the fact that process is a competitive differentiator. And, you know, it's not always well received or believed. And you know, you leading the client engagement team who, you know, handles a lot of like our client facing process. I'd love to hear your take as well on why spending the time putting the operational rigor in place is so important for an organization to be able to be you know, a leader in their space.

Max Stoddard  55:03

Yeah, I think whilst listening to everyone talk, I think calling it process almost feels like undermining what we do like we are engineering complex solutions to problems that slow businesses down and sometimes kill them entirely. I would say, you know, I kind of want to equate it to a tight rope safety net, it's that without that safety net without that thing to fall back on, it's really easy. And, of course, the safety net being the processor, the the complex solution we've engineered, it is very possible for things to go very wrong very quickly. And before you can stop it. And, you know, I would say a lot of the places I've worked the common thing, because it's the easy thing, because it's the thing people are given resources, like time for, is to have Band Aid pieces of things that solve individual problems, but rarely are they are the pieces connected. That is our strength. And my opinion is that we don't just say, here's a template for this particular task. We look at where that template lives in the whole lifecycle and who it's serving and who it's for. And we build something that can be applied to different use cases that fits how we work and the Tegrity way and what we're delivering. And it there's so much complexity to delivering on who we are and how we work that requires that whole ecosystem. And that's why I I've started I've started thinking of it more as engineering than process.

Brandi Starr  56:58

I love it. So as we wrap up, I want to ask each of you, what is the biggest lesson that you've learned as a leader, since you've been at TechRadar. And I will start to give you guys a chance to think the biggest lesson that I have learned, for me really has been around giving people space to be their authentic, amazing self. I am a bit of a control freak. And I recognize that. And I think one of the hardest pieces of feedback that I ever got as a leader was when someone complained to another executive, that I didn't give them space to think that I was always giving really specific direction and expected that they just followed. And that was really hard for me to hear. Because to me, I thought I was you know, helping by giving specific direction. But as a leader, you have to and you know, we've all gone through some some leadership coaching together and the Ask asked, Tell ignore approach is really key of knowing when to tell someone what to do, knowing when to ask them questions, so that they can arrive at their own approach. And also knowing when to just shut up and give them space to fully figure it out on their own. And that's probably been the biggest evolution for me as a leader is not consistently leading with tell and allowing people to show up and be amazing and be amazing in their own right. Even if it's not the way I would have done it. And so it's a bit of personal growth. That I think that there's a lot of leaders out there that can also stand to learn that lesson, as well. So mine is around leadership. There we go, we'll go to

Max Stoddard  59:19

so I came into Tegrita to hoping that it was possible to have a more humane workplace. So Tegrita promised to be different and I came in with the hope it was possible. I now have learned that not only is it possible, but it is more successful. It is easier when you have those intentions because you are not like you said I can sleep at night with our decisions but also the to sort of steal your words really the problems that we're trying to solve are not a constant lack of a sense of exploited as being exploited from our team. And that is a very, very deliberate way of saying the vast majority of management challenges that other managers have at other places. So it's not just possible to have a humane workplace, it's better. It's more successful. 

Brandi Starr  1:00:22

I agree completely. All right, Rolly, Mike, who's gonna go next?

Mike Geller  1:00:30

I can go. So, my perspective, I guess, maybe he's a little different. And it's really more about change and how different things are and maybe what you would expect, at different stages of growth or evolution, or just the journey, as I originally said, and how it is, like, change is a constant, right? So things are always changing. But what will the business look like with those changes is always going to be a surprise, you're always, you're always going to be surprised. And you might think, you know, but you know, you don't. And then you learn more. So it just kind of one of the biggest sort of joys for me of this journey is just the learning that happens along the way. It's, it's kind of amazing.

Brandi Starr  1:01:37

And then Rolly, you get to wrap it up for us, what is your biggest lesson learned?

Rolly Keenan  1:01:44

My biggest lesson, which I've told friends and family about is, how much more I can accomplish with people who are good at things I'm not good at. So with working with the three of you has been eye opening, I have, as all three of you know, intense talent on certain things. That's it, I don't, I can't, I'm not well rounded. And so I've learned the how great it is. And I'm probably pretty lucky, I'm sure some people don't ever, ever get the chance to have the three of you with your very, you know, specific talents that complement mine. And man, I feel like I can do so many things that I just can't do without you. So that's my biggest learning from being on the team.

Brandi Starr  1:02:43

Awesome, as I said, gives me all the warm and fuzzies. Well, I really appreciate you all joining me, I hope that everyone listening has been able to take away lessons on leadership and growing a business and hiring and all of the things because you know, when you are an executive, especially at the C level, there's so many layers to what we have to do that go beyond just the practice of our discipline and the functions that we're in. And it's hard. You know, there's, there's tough decisions, there's, you know, priorities and focuses and all of the things and so being able to have a strong team like we have and to be able to share some of these lessons. I hope that it gives inspiration and insight to everyone that is listening. So thank you all so much for joining me. And thanks to everyone who is joining us. I can't believe we are at the end, but we will see you next time.

Outro VO  1:03:54

You've been listening to revenue rehab with your host brandi starr. Your session is now over but the learning has just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue rehab dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.