The Heart of Success: A Leader's Guide to Highly Engaged Teams

Intro VO  00:05

Welcome to revenue rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita Brandi Starr

Brandi Starr  00:33

Hello, hello hello and welcome to another episode of revenue rehab. I am your host Brandi Starr and we have another amazing episode for you today. I am joined by Stosh Walsh Stosh serves leaders and their organizations as a consultant, coach, facilitator, speaker and writer. His direct, insightful and encouraging style invites individuals and organizations to live with greater courage and create the best world they can envision. He began his career in traditional education setting, honing his leadership as a classroom teacher for middle school through college, and as a university residence life director and athletics coach. After those experiences, he spent nearly a decade with the Gallup organization as a part of their executive leadership practice, where he contributed to the best selling strength space leadership won several awards as gallops top presenter in his practice category. He is an expert in strength based organizational development, including leadership and executive coaching, employee engagement, and Talent Management, having spent 1000s of consulting hours coaching and training on each. His experience also includes directing and learning, directing the learning and development efforts of the largest credit union in Illinois, and serving as a leadership solutions partner with the Center for Creative Leadership. He later founded constant organizational development in 2016, which is where I met him. Welcome to revenue rehab, your session begins now. 

Stosh Walsh  02:17

Hey, Brandi thanks for having me.

Brandi Starr  02:19

I am excited to have you and I learned something new. I did not know that you taught middle school. So that is very interesting. But I definitely can say I can see it. Cuz you do have a lot of patience.

Stosh Walsh  02:34

Yeah, I think anybody who's ever taught will tell you that it's an experience. They don't forget, I valued it and really enjoyed it. But it just I wasn't a good enough planner to stay in education.

Brandi Starr  02:45

I totally get it. Well, I like to break the ice with a little woosah moment that I call buzzword. banishment. So tell me what industry buzzword? Would you like to get rid of forever?

Stosh Walsh  03:01

You know, I loved it. When you all did this. When Tegrita did this on on LinkedIn. I saw it during March Madness. And for me, I think the one that I'm going to go with is statistically significant.

Brandi Starr  03:19

Yeah, that one does get overused. And I don't know that anybody truly knows what it means, or is using it in a meaningful way? Yeah, probably, why don't you like it? 

Stosh Walsh  03:35

Well, in part because of what you just said, because using it in meaningful ways, is difficult. And there are a lot of people who are really intelligent statisticians. And it's an important thing to get the numbers, right. But in terms of engagement in terms of management, that term is overused. And it's even used as an emphasis on the wrong things. So we say, well, the improvement that we've made in terms of engagement surveys statistically significant, well, the the problem with that is no one cares, except the consultants who are helping you with your survey. And so the people who are actually supposed to be benefiting from having an environment that's more engaged, they couldn't care less whether you score 4.3, or 4.5, and what that means for anybody except for, you know, the people who are trying to drive the metric as opposed to driving the outcome.

Brandi Starr  04:28

Yeah, and we'll dig into that in just a bit more, because I do want to talk about some of the difference of why we focus on having engaged employees. Which brings me to my standard question, which is what brings you to revenue rehab today?

Stosh Walsh  04:43

Well, mostly it is the fact that there are a lot of organizations in the world who still think they can have a great business and drive revenue without considering what the impact is going to be on people or the fact that people are what drives everything. in an organization?

Brandi Starr  05:02

Yeah, I agree completely. And I think we've seen a shift in the marketplace. But before I get ahead of myself diving in, I believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, and it gives us purpose. And most important, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our conversation today. So what's your best hope for our talk? What would you like people to take away?

Stosh Walsh  05:26

I'd love it. If people who saw this episode were inspired to be more intentional about how they interact with people in the workplace, especially if they happen to be people who have direct reports or a team they manage.

Brandi Starr  05:42

Yeah, I am with you there. And that is honestly the main reason I wanted to bring you to the couch. I have one of my best friends is going through a DNI certification. And as a part of her course study, she had to interview a manager who she believed had highly engaged employees. And because we talk shop a lot, she knew we had been doing a lot of work with you on, you know, improving employee engagement and making sure that we are, you know, offering a safe and healthy work environment. So she chose me as her interviewee, and there were 13 or so questions that she asked. And I felt proud because I had a clear answer for all of them. It was like, What are you doing? You know, one of them was What are you doing so to help ensure that employees can bring their whole and authentic self to work and things like that, and I didn't have to think hard on any of those questions. And so I was already kind of giving, you know, our tiger to leadership team and us some kudos. And then she told me after she turned her assignment, and a part of the comments that she got back from her professor, was that in all of his time of teaching, this was one of the most engaged teams that he had seen in this assignment. And he was, you know, kinda like, you're lucky to know this person, there's a lot you can learn from them as a leader. And, you know, thinking about how many students come through this course, just in a year, and do this same, you know, assignment, it really made it hit home for me the true effectiveness, that of what we've been doing. But the fact that this is not something that everyone else is doing. And so, I was like, we got to talk about this, because, you know, there's been a shift. And and I think, you know, employees are really more in the driver's seat now than they ever have been. And so I'd like to start by asking you, like, what are you seeing in the marketplace now? And why is it important for leaders to really pay attention to employee engagement at this point?

Stosh Walsh  07:57

So I mean, obviously, I'm, in some ways, I'm the wrong person to ask that question. Because I've always thought that engagement is important. But I think what's happening in the marketplace is people are starting to realize that not only is it a competitive advantage, and that sort of transactional aspect of it still exists, but that it actually is a way to drive all the things that all these organizations talk about, right. So when organizations talk about having the certain kinds of values, or how they want to show up with their stakeholders, whoever those stakeholders might be, or even specific metrics, like retention, etc. Engagement is the driver for all of that. And I think what people are starting to see is not just that part of it, but the part that says, we need to just do this, because it's the right thing to do. So, you know, post pandemic, and all of the different things that have kind of influenced our thinking, you know, remote work, etc. There have been a lot of reconsideration of the social contract of work. And when people go into that social contract, they expect to be able to have an environment that treats them well and gives them opportunities to do the things that they do best. And a lot of the things that we measure on engagement surveys, or employee satisfaction surveys, employee experience surveys, that whole thing is becoming more about this is now a baseline of expectation. It's no longer this special thing that some organizations do, and other organizations don't. And employees, as you said, being in the driver's seat, maybe more than they ever have been, are starting to get to a place where if they weren't there already, where they're interviewing organizations and saying, Tell me what the environment is like, tell me what the culture you've created is like what can I expect when I get here and they're making decisions based on the answers they're hearing as opposed to I need to really need a job and I need to make X amount of money.

Brandi Starr  09:51

Yeah, and that is one thing. I've seen a lot of debates happening around this air quotes phenomenon that that you know, people see tend to think it is post pandemic, in that, you know, there's some leaders who get it. You know, I'm in my 40s. And I think about when I started my career, toxic work environments were the norm, like, I can remember in college, one of our business acumen classes, you know, it actually coached us through how to work in a toxic work environment, they, of course, didn't call it that. But it was, you know, like, I remember having a lesson on, you know, gender in the the office and some of the gender norms, and basically, how to be a woman in the workplace and you know, how to be heard, and, you know, these sorts of things that were really normal then, and, you know, I have 20 something year old kids and talking to them about some of the things they see. And, you know, it's so just common sense to them. Like, why would you work in an environment that does that? Why would you, you know, why would I ever do that, and it's so different. So I do think like, the generations changing the, you know, people value different things after the pandemic, but there are still some leaders. And generally, from an age perspective, they are older, that try and write this phenomenon off as entitlement. And you know, that everybody is like, woke, or you know, all these like buzzwords that don't make sense. How do you what do you say to those people who just don't get it to help them understand why this is critical at this point?

Stosh Walsh  11:41

Candidly, I say, How's that working for you? Because it's not, yeah, I know for sure that your organization could be doing better than it is, in any number of key areas that are important to you, or at least that you say are important to you. And because of your behavior, and because of the environment that you're creating as a result of that behavior. Those things are not happening, or they're not happening as well as they could be. And so what I always say, how is it working for you, because if you're going to act like that, you're driving people away. Or you're creating an environment where it's at best transactional. So I'm staying because of a paycheck, or I'm staying because of, you know, whatever it is, and only until I can get myself out of here, and no one wants to work in an organization like that. And no organization says they want to be like that, that I think the biggest thing for me is who starts to say, this isn't acceptable from leaders in our organization. Right? So does a board come down and say that two peers come along and say that, who's who's the, who's the entity that's going to go? Okay, look, I'm gonna have enough courage to stand up and say, This is not right. And the irony of what's happening is it's starting to happen from I shouldn't say it's starting to happen, it's been happening from the bottom up. So it's a critical mass of people who are saying, I'm just not willing to work in that kind of an environment. And if I discover this environment is like this, or if it transitions into being like this, this toxicity that you're talking about, I'm just gonna leave, and people. And that's where you saw, the pandemic, I think, gave people permission, I don't think the pandemic was a cause of this phenomenon. I think it just gave people permission to do what was already on their minds and hearts to do. And for a lot of those people, it was, I'm just going to quit my job and do something else. And you saw people doing that, even if they didn't have something else lined up. And some of that was bad workplaces. But some of that was also just, I just want to realign my priorities. I want to do something different with my life, I want to change careers, I want to focus on something else, whatever it might have been. And all of that is falling under the umbrella of how engaged are you?

Brandi Starr  13:49

And so I think that's a good next question. I always like to level set with definitions. So when we talk about highly engaged teams, employee engagement, what does that really mean? What does it mean to have an engaged team?

Stosh Walsh  14:06

I think the shortest version is it means that people are giving the best parts of themselves to the work that's in front of them. So and they're doing that voluntarily. They're not doing it because they're being told they have to their their discretionary investment in their work is high. That's what fully engaged people means.

Brandi Starr  14:24

I love that and what's the benefit? So when, you know, the the motivation for leaders, I mean, it should be to do right by people. And we recognize that that's not always the case. So what is the benefit to the business when you haven't highly when you have a highly engaged team?

Stosh Walsh  14:46

So obviously, there are a lot of good research done by any number of organizations that link specific business outcomes to engage teams. So things like retention per person productivity, lead shrink or theft, if you're in a retail environment, for example, those kinds of things. So there's some specific business outcomes that you know, you're going to enjoy. If you have a more engaged group, your customer metrics get better, for example, because obviously customers are interacting with your employees, you know, those kinds of things. Those things are great. But I think that's sort of the middle stage of the evolution of, of employee engagement. So we're, we're what I want to think and what I'm trying to get my clients and everybody who will listen to think is this evolution is moving away from those outcomes, though, as the primary motivator for why we do engagement. And that becomes the byproduct of having engaged environments, and really focusing on the kinds of behaviors that we need to demonstrate or display, in order to have the kind of environment that's going to be whatever proof, right, so future proof, recession proof, whatever those buzzwords are, that we probably would have thrown out at the beginning of the show. But those things that could cause change, are not really going to impact us as much as they would otherwise. Because the culture and the environment is going to come into play, because the group is engaged. And we know we can rely on that, versus what we're doing this so that we can get better retention.

Brandi Starr  16:21

Right? And so what are some of those behaviors? So if I'm, you know, trying to think about, like, what does this really look like, if I'm trying to be the change agent in my organization, to move in a direction where we are holistically trying to create a healthy and engaged environment for our teams? Like what are some of those behaviors that we're striving for?

Stosh Walsh  16:47

So it's interesting, because depending on who you ask, the percentage of control that a manager has over the degree to which people on the team are engaged is generally pretty high, like upwards of 60, and 70%. So the question is a good one, because it ultimately is the manager who has the most control over that environment. And so one of the things that I always say is, your goal as a manager is to try to create an environment in which engagement is possible. So in essence, you're sending an invitation to people, not all of them are going to take that invitation that's not up to you. What's up to you is do you create the kind of environment that makes it so that people can say, Yes, I want to be more connected, I want to be more engaged, I want to give more of the best parts of myself. And so those behaviors that are associated with that are things like being a good coach, asking good questions, taking an interest in people outside of just the transaction of work. It's things like setting people up for success by making sure they have everything they need to be able to do their work. Well. It's focusing on what's right with people, as opposed to focusing on what's wrong with people. So most of our performance reviews in organizations are still based on what are your gaps? What are your shortcomings, what are your blind spots instead of here's what you're great at, and how can we set you up to do as much of it as possible, because that's where you're really adding value to the organization. And that's probably where you're happiest anyway. So behaviors like that, that enable the interaction between people, and just core interest in someone's growth and development. And being a person who can mentor or guide or coach and help people to take whatever pathway they want for themselves as they progress in their careers. Just to name a handful.

Brandi Starr  18:29

Yeah, and I really think, you know, the hard part that comes in is, if you think about most people's career progression, you're generally really good. As an individual contributor, you know, you become amazing at something, you move up. And at a certain point, the next step becomes being a people manager. And so people move into that role. And, you know, being a people manager, one of the things that I have learned most is that component of my role is a completely different gig, and has absolutely nothing to do with the successes that I had as an individual contributor. And so I think this is, you know, from my own observation, to me, this is where a lot of it falls apart. Not that, you know, you know, I think I believe that people are inherently good and do want to do right by, you know, others. And so not even that they, you know, don't care or don't want to create that environment. But to me, there's a lot of don't know any better. You know, and people just kind of progress into that management role. And in trying to figure it out, they often fail.

Stosh Walsh  19:48

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right about that. And it's an age old problem, right? I mean, the Peter Principle, we promote people to their level of incompetence, and a big part of it is what you i Think correctly identified in most organizations, there's no pathway to stay an individual contributor and get to a senior level in an organization that exists in certain quarters. But in general, you have to become a manager in order to progress in your career. And just because you're the best performer and an individual contributor tasks, doesn't mean you're going to be the best manager of it. In fact, for a lot of people, it becomes more of a, well, why can't they do it as well as I did? Right. And I don't understand. And so because of that, it turns into control. And so I want to be careful about how I use this metaphor. But it's a lot like those of us who have younger people in our charge, whether that's parents or grandparents or whomever, that notion of we forget that kids are kids, not little adults. And so in terms of their development, in terms of the choices they make, in terms of even just what they're capable of, they can't do it the way we do it, even though it frustrates us. And so we have to think about how do we get on their level, and give them terminology and give them coaching or guidance or whatever, in ways that they can understand. And I think that's the same thing that managers have to do. And you said something just a moment ago about how it's a totally different gig. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the things that you did well as an individual contributor are going to translate into your ability to manage people. Because the way that you did it at a level of excellence as an individual contributor, is not the way that everybody on your team is going to do it, it might help, it might be something that you can give them as a right, hey, this is what worked for me, you might try this on for size and adapt this to your own style, like that kind of thing. Of course, you can do that sort of thing. But if you've got 10 people on your team, there's 10 different pathways to that outcome. And so your job as a manager becomes, how do I make it so that it's possible for each one of these people to make it to this outcome in the best way possible for the organization, but also in the best ways possible for them?

Brandi Starr  21:59

Yeah, and I can honestly say that that's been the hardest part for me is that recognizing that everyone doesn't think like me, doesn't approach like, you know, things like me doesn't have the same experience that I have. And, you know, early on, I did find myself getting frustrated, like, why can't you just do that, like, you know, takes me 10 minutes to do that. And it's like, because they struggle with that. And so that, you know, finding that individualization in being able to lead people, I think it is, you know, I mean, you see it in like romantic relationships, you know, they talked about the love languages, and that people naturally, you know, give to their partner based on their own love languages, and not the other way around. So I think it's very human to do what we know and what we like. And so, you know, I definitely recommend, you know, my shameless plug for working with you, like, I have learned so, so much in the past couple years, that we've been working with you. But I'd like to kind of give those listening, a little bit of a crash course, in, if I'm listening, and I'm like, You know what, I know that I'm not, you know, doing the best at the people managing gig, what are some quick wins or little tips that you can give that people can try to try to improve, you know, quickly as they figure out, you know, a bigger strategy to create a more engaged organization.

Stosh Walsh  23:32

Yeah, so I think that off the top of my head, there's a couple of things. The first one is, you know, think about the best manager you've ever had? And what are some of the things that that person did that helped you be at your best? And what are some of the things that you could beg borrow or steal or modify for your own style that could potentially work with the people that you have on your team? So none of this is original, right? And so it's fine to say, hey, what's the model I could look at. But specifically, in terms of behavior, I would say one of the best things you can do is cultivate the art of asking good questions. So a simple Google search even would give you a handful of questions that you could ask people in your one on one meetings or in your team meetings. And again, modify those to your style, figure out what's going to work for you. But getting to a place where you're able to use the word individualization, where you're able to individualize your approach to each person on the team. Ultimately, that's the goal right there. If you're going to be a great manager, the two things that you have to have more than anything else are the ability to individualize to each person on the team. And the second one is to be obsessed with someone else's success, not necessarily your own. And so if you're able to do that, then you got a leg up on being a great manager. So cultivating the art of asking good questions, getting, you know, setting people up for success and thinking about that. And then I guess the other thing that I would say is, find out what people are good at and focus Son that that is the number one lever to pull in terms of making a difference for people's engagement. Because it is almost impossible to be disengaged when someone's focused on what you're good at, if you come into work every day, and someone's saying, hey, like, I really liked the way you did this, and I really want to help you do more of that, and I really want you to be doing that on our teams and inviting you into those places, it's really, really hard to not like your job, right? You're, you're not going to come in and be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't do this again today, because someone's setting you up to do something that you do best all the time. So I think those are a couple of things off the top of my head. Shameless plug, you can get a guide on how to engage your team for free on my website. So constant odd.com, and then backslash get engaged. And all it'll cost you is your email address. And there's a couple of kind of big hit things that you can do with a PDF download right there that will just get in your email.

Brandi Starr  25:53

I love it. And you know, those techniques have helped so much. And, you know, as a consultant, like asking questions is kind of my jam, and just really thinking about how to ask, you know, my team members, what they're feeling what they're interested in, where they thrive. You know, I've got someone on my team who's like, really hard to read, like, you know, never know if like, she's happy, sad, you know, she's just very even tempered. And so I always have to ask, like, how are you feeling? Like, are you liking what you're doing? Is there anything that you know, you dread having to do on a day to day? What are the things that get you jams? You know, what is your best day look like? Like, those sorts of things, really, just those open ended questions, I have found really get people talking and give you so much insight. And I know I've had so many aha moments of like, Oh, I was frustrated with this person, because they do this. But they do that because of this. So if I approach it this way, then you know, we both get what we need. And so yeah, I definitely echo, you know, asking the good questions. And it's almost like the more vague the question, the better. Because, you know, people kind of interpreted how they interpreted and generally give you such good insight into who they are as a person.

Stosh Walsh  27:26

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up. Because there's a big difference between asking a yes or no question, you know, questions to start with, do you or have you or something like that? Versus questions to start with, to what extent or how, you know, and I think that being able to ask those kinds of questions, and then importantly, having the patience to just sit there with the silence while someone thinks it through, and then gives you their best response, and then even sit there for a little bit longer, as we've talked about in some of the trainings that we've done over time, sit there for a little bit longer after they finished their first thing and say something like, is there anything else? Or tell me more? Or would you like to expand on that, or just be quiet and let them think about it again, and then if they start talking, again, there's so much good things that can come from that. So doing 20% of the talking instead of 80% of the talking in your meetings, is a really difficult thing. Most people overestimate the amount of time they listen.

Brandi Starr  28:21

Yeah, and I know that being silent is, it's one that's super difficult for me, but it is super impactful. Because that, you know, it's like most people want to fill the silence. And so if you leave that silence, they start to think deeper. And, you know, really start to like be like, well, well, you know, that was my first answer. But as I think about it, some more, you know, those sorts of things, and you you do really get to go a lot deeper. And so I think those are some really, really easy ways. And you've got, you know, love good download as a marketer to be able to help with that as well. Because I do think just mastering the one on one with people on our team, you know, whoever you're managing, I think that's a great place to start in trying to build more of a strong engaged environment.

Stosh Walsh  29:20

Yeah, I think if there was only one thing I could wave my magic wand and change about most organizations, it would be that individual managers have one on one meetings as frequently as associates want to have them at least initially. Yeah. And that I can't tell you how many, sorry, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten into an organization and said, you know, to individual managers that I was coaching or even in a training with multiple managers and said, you know, how often you meet with your people one on one, and they sort of look around the room like I'm supposed to be doing that. It's like, oh, we've got a problem here. We're going to need to fix this pronto, right? Because if you're not meeting with your folks, then you have no idea what their aspirations are. You have no idea what they're best at. You have no I mean, you're just playing a guessing game. And you're making assumptions based on your observations. And there's really nothing wrong with your observations most of the time, but it takes so much longer. So why wouldn't we want to just hear it straight from them and give them an opportunity to fill us in? Especially when they're going to tell us something that we've probably never heard before? If we're asking good enough questions.

Brandi Starr  30:21

Yeah, I can remember I had a manager during my review, say, I don't really know what you do. But all your peers say you do it really well. So here's, you know, here's your incremental raise. And that was the moment I knew I was done at that company. Because yeah, I'm like, not only do you not meet with me, you haven't even made the effort to actually understand what my job is. And you know, he did inherit our team, like, you know, I get that, but anywho. That's a different rant for a different day. But yeah, that one on one time and not in a status one on one, because I think that's the other thing that happens a lot managers have one on one, but they're more going over, like Project statuses and things like that. So I do think that it is I agree with you there as well, we'll start talking about our challenges is just first step, and nothing changes, if nothing changes. And so in traditional therapy, the therapist will give the client some homework, but here at revenue rehab, we like to flip that on its head and ask you to give us some homework. So I always like to give people that one thing that they can walk away and do to move in the right direction. So I'd love to I think we've already thrown out a number of them here. So people have already got some action items. But if they only take away one thing, what would be the next step that you would recommend?

Stosh Walsh  31:48

Meet with your people one on one. That's the number one thing, meet with your people one on one. And if you're already doing that wonderful focus 90 plus percent of your time on what they're great at. And if you're already doing that, then great. Go find a couple of more questions that are going to give you further mileage and further insight into who those people are.

Brandi Starr  32:08

I love it, we can definitely all take that action item. Well, I have enjoyed this discussion so much. But that's our time for today. But before we go tell us, how can people connect with you? And then I know you have an awesome podcast as well. So I'd love to hear you give the shameless plug for that also.

Stosh Walsh  32:29

Sure, thank you. So yeah, people can reach out on my websites constant od.com. And there's a couple of different things that you can download there that can help you be a better manager or a better leader. And in addition to that we talk about these things on a weekly basis on the podcast. It's called the insubordinate. And you can listen to that wherever you find your favorite podcasts, whether it's revenue rehab, or something else. And we've actually talked in the recent past about questions, specific questions that people can ask folks on their team. So that's a recent episode that people can tune into if they want to examples of of kinds of questions they could ask.

Brandi Starr  33:04

Awesome. Well, we will make sure to link to your website and your podcast and your book, in the show notes so that wherever you are listening or watching this podcast, you'll be able to connect with Stosh will Stosh. Thank you so, so much. I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. Likewise. Thank you. Awesome, and thanks, everyone for joining us. I can't believe we're at the end. We'll see you next time.

Outro VO  33:33

You've been listening to Revenue Rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over, but the learning has just begun. join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenue we have dot live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at revenue rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.