Web3: What it Means for B2B Marketers

[0:05] Intro:

Welcome to Revenue Rehab, your one stop destination for collective solutions to the biggest challenges faced by marketing leaders today. Now head on over to the couch, make yourself comfortable and get ready to change the way you approach revenue. Leading your recovery is modern marketer, author, speaker and Chief Operating Officer at Tegrita, Brandi Starr.

[0:34] Brandi Starr:  

Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Rehab. I am your host, Brandi Starr. And I have another amazing episode for you today, I am joined by Hana Jacover. After 10 plus successful years of building and executing, marketing and marketing operations strategies for B2B tech companies, Hana has started seeing a critical pattern around people. Burnout, impostor syndrome, hyper productivity without the desired results, lack of management training and more, with the most impact being high performers who are giving their all and likely stepping into leadership seats. This gap drove Hana to evaluate how she can better serve the B2B marketing community and democratize coaching to ensure we address and close these critical gaps for the incoming C-level. Hana's goals are to make coaching accessible for everyone and use her experience to provide a balance between role specific and industry context, effective communication, and techniques designed to tap into your inner sense and empowerment. Welcome to Revenue Rehab, your session begins now. 

[02:03] Hana Jacover:

Hello! 

[02:05] Brandi Starr:  

Hi, I am so excited to have you here today and we've got a great topic ahead. But before we jump into that, I like to break the ice with a little woosah moment that I like to call buzzword banishment. So tell me what industry buzzword would you like to get rid of forever?

[2:30] Hana Jacover:   

This is such a good one, it was really hard to choose one. I think I'm going to go with growth hacking though. Growth hacking, I mean, anything hacking; unless you're hacking into somebody's system or something like that, you're really not actually hacking, you're just doing. So growth hacking is one that I would definitely get rid of, banish it; you're just doing marketing, you're just doing growth marketing, I don't even love that one either but marketing, it's all marketing people.

[3:04] Brandi Starr:  

Yeah, because it's like does anyone really not have an objective to grow? Isn't everything tied into growth? I do think hacking is one of those things that is overused. So much so that my seven-year-old is always like, oh mom, I've got a new life hack. And I was like, how are we hacking life? 

[03:29] Hana Jacover:

Yes, how is it a hack? 

[03:31] Brandi Starr:

No, this is just a shortcut and, in some cases, it's just life, it's just what's normal. So to your point, we aren't really hacking anything, we're not breaking the code or cracking the code. We're just doing what we're supposed to be doing. So I am happy to take growth hacking, put it in the box and throw away the key so that unless you are an actual hacker, that we can stop hacking things. So now that we've gotten that off our chest, tell me what brings you to Revenue Rehab today?

[4:08] Hana Jacover:

Yes. I'm excited to be here to talk about Web 3, which is like one of my secret -- Well, it's not a secret anymore, but passion projects. I've dug deep into the tunnels of Web 3 for a while now. And we're going to talk about why it matters to b2b marketers. Why should we care about Web 3? What's happening with that kind of convergence?

[4:32] Brandi Starr:  

Well, I'm excited that we are talking about this topic. It is one of those things where I have to admit, it always makes me feel dumb because I just don't get it. I've sat through a few webinars, I've listened to people talk about things and there are some components that I understand a little better than others, but holistically, I don't get it. So I am hoping that after our conversation today that I will feel a little less dumb when it comes to this topic and get it. But as we jump in, I believe in setting intentions, it gives us focus, it gives us purpose and most importantly, it gives our audience an understanding of what they should expect from our conversation today. So tell me, what are your hopes for our topic today? Or what would you like to be different after our session?

[5:30] Hana Jacover:

I hope to just bring some inspiration and perspective. I think curiosity is so important, that's why I got into understanding what Web 3 is and where it could take us. So I want to pass that along. I am not a Web 3 expert, I'm somebody who's just ingrained myself in the community and learned about it. You can all do that too. This is readily available information. So curiosity, inspiration for others to go out and do that. Because then you can bring that to your daily life and create some really, really cool things.

[6:10] Brandi Starr:

Awesome. So my first question is probably the most obvious question, which is what is Web 3? 

[06:19] Hana Jacover:  

So Web 3, you can think of it as like an umbrella term. And what it really is, and how a lot of people describe it is simply the evolution of the Internet, the way that we use the internet. So if you kind of think in timelines, and we think about Web 1. Web 1 would be like, transport back to the 90s, where things were actually fairly decentralized when it came to the internet, pretty open source when it came to the internet. That's when everybody was like -- people that used to talk about the internet in the 90s, now that's how people look at me or other people when they talk about Web 3. They're like what are you saying? But yeah, so Web 1 essentially, it's very static. You go to a website, you read, you're ingesting, you're really just ingesting. And then as we moved along, I would say, into more a dynamic relationship with the internet, we move into Web 2, which is where we sit today. And that is where we're going to start seeing lots of different layers. And we start to see this centralization of the Internet where we're not only now reading, were writing as well. So we're engaging with the internet on a variety of different applications and platforms and things like that. So with this engagement though, what we see and what I mentioned was that we start to see a centralization. So things will start to live on servers and data will then go into those servers, right ingested by those servers, who are typically owned by corporations. So this is where kind of the centralization comes in. And then you start thinking of engagement. Engagement is huge. You're giving something, you're engaging with something, which means there's usually an input and an output. And whatever you're putting in, is being ingested and there's something happening with that. And there's usually layers and layers and layers today of applications where you're not just going to one website and engaging with that website and it just stays there; you're usually going through, or maybe Amazon, or maybe Facebook, or maybe this app or that app. So then what happens is that you no longer own your data. And then what happens to that data on the other side is, the dark side of the internet, which we all probably are very familiarized with, is that data is not yours anymore, it is sold, it is used, it is don't want to use the term hacked, you can hack it. So it's really kind of become a little bit of a dangerous internet in some sense, to where -- and I'll also say like, it's not a cool place to be a creator. So you create something, you don't own it, you do something, you don't own it. You don't own your data. You don't own your creations in Web 2, which is really kind of that concept of, okay, like, is there a way for us to keep this dynamic way of having this internet keep this engagement really high, but have it be a little bit more ethical and a little bit more distributed? So we're looking at Web 3 now, which is sort of read, write, engage and own right. It's about ownership, it's about decentralization. It's how can we take all of these great things that used to be Web 1 and Web 2, particularly Web 1 where it's open source and it's a lot more transparent, and build with the latest technologies in Web 3, where it's really like a creator’s paradise. We contribute, we own you take your data, you take your creations, and you can earn from them as well. And there's no overlords coming in to govern that, although that's one of the things in question, how can we keep this trust list. But essentially, that's where Web 3 is going.

[10:33] Brandi Starr:

Okay, so let me dig into the ownership for a second, to help me to better understand. Because if I think about Web 2, and if I own the server, if I buy my server, I have the way to configure that like a company. And what I am putting out on the web is on my own server, why is that not ownership? Help our listeners to understand the difference between I got a server and I'm only putting my stuff out on that server, why is that not ownership but Web 3 is?

[11:12] Hana Jacover:  

So there's a difference. There's a possibility of having ownership where it's like if you're going through the process of setting all of that up, and you're building your own protocol and things like that, yes, you can own your own data. But are you never going to interact with other social media apps? Are you never going to leave your house? There are all of these other layers where you're passing through other servers? It's nearly impossible for you to just have everything sit with you forever, not with the way that our internet is built, at least. So when you start passing through these other layers, then you do lose your ownership that way.

[11:56] Brandi Starr:

Okay, perfect. And so on Web 3, what in Web 3 is allowing me to maintain that ownership?

[12:05] Hana Jacover:   

So when we think about Web 3, and the way that it's built and the blockchain is a big component of the of Web 3, is because we're not relying on one server to validate something, we're relying on a network, a network that isn't owned by anybody. And when you put something out into the blockchain, there's this concept of mutability, the likelihood of it to change. So essentially, things on the internet today are very mutable, which means that they can change hour to hour, minute to minute, day to day, person to person, think about personalization, things are constantly changing. But when you have something out on Web 3, there's this concept of having it be immutable, and living on the blockchain forever. There's this ledger where we're constantly keeping track of what is happening, what's coming, what's going. It's completely transparent. It's being validated by a number of different networks. So there's a lot of credibility and there's a record. So where you physically can't change it, if you put it out there and it sits on the blockchain. It's there. And there's a ledger, there's a record, you cannot go back in and change it.

[13:33] Brandi Starr:   

Okay, that helps a lot. So thinking about marketers, especially b2b, because I've seen some b2c examples of where some consumer brands have been able to tap into some of the benefits of Web 3. But I know the majority of our listeners are heads of marketing for b2b companies. So why does this matter for us? What why do we need to care? What do we need to be planning for, thinking about, talking about with our teams?

[14:05] Hana Jacover:

I think it matters in the same way that the internet mattered in the 90s. The evolution of all technology matters. That's the big reason, is because we as innovators of technology, are responsible for understanding where technology is moving and what the different opportunities are. So I think that's the biggest reason is, if there's some sort of new technology that is on the rise that is clearly having an impact in certain markets, that's something to pay attention to; especially if it's b2c leading that because then we start to see that bridge over to b2b. But I also think that it is going to be interesting in the near future, how we start to see these things weave together. There's a lot of trust in policy right now. And I think that policy and technology sometimes -- well, they definitely buttheads. So technology has a big part to play in the evolution of where things are going. So I think just understanding, okay, what's going to happen with policy and what's going to happen with policy and big tech right now, that's going to change. There are going to be things that are put into place like it's in progress right now, it's being talked about. And I know this is like, people don't want to politicize it, but it is a political issue. It is being talked about and discussed at the highest level of government of how to govern technology and big tech. So there's a direct impact there. And you can think of it as no, that's just Facebook. That's just Google. But that's where it starts. That policy will trickle down, those conversations will trickle down. So I think we are watching that and seeing what's happening there and we need to stay attuned to it. Especially as we start to see Meta, I said Facebook, but a company like Meta start to dive into something like the metaverse and start to think about and talk about Web 3. So if they're talking about it, we should be thinking about it and saying, hmm what's going to happen there? What's that connection look like, especially from a policy standpoint? I also think that probably two more exciting things are the ability to create community in a true sense. People in b2b want community right now, marketers are talking about building community, it's becoming a new focus role for a lot of teams that are specifically like we want to build true community, we want to build these networks of individuals, we don't just want to look at people as audiences, we want to work with them. So this is a trend that we're seeing in b2b and Web 3 is community. That is the core of Web 3 is that is built by community. So when we think about how do we build community, we should be looking at Web 3, as an example. We should be looking at how are they doing this? What does it look like? What are the different platforms they're using, what's working, what's not working. So it provides a really some amazing examples as to how to build community, how not to build community, what's working, what's not.

And lastly, I think, being able to be more creative in Web 3, just the ability to use those technologies and platforms to put out a different message, to put out a different type of creative, to get people excited, and just doing something a little bit different. We always talk about b2b marketers should act more like b2c marketers. Well, this is an opportunity to do that. And I also add one more too, is thinking about jobs. I know a lot of Web 3, and the general like economic state is their cynicism to our rights. But if you think about and you can say, okay, if we have some optimism around Web 3, we can see this as an emerging market for jobs as well. So you can go and look, especially in tech, there's a lot of transferable skills there. People are still looking for email marketing, marketing strategy in general, social media, community builders. Those are still important jobs no matter where you go. So again, having some optimism around Web 3 and its growth, it's a great jumping point, for those that are looking for jobs that want to do something a little bit different, want to kind of go along with this trend in terms of innovation technology, and move into Web 3 and bring their Web 2 skills and experience with them.

[19:08] Brandi Starr:   

Okay. So you hit on a few things that I want to dive into here. A lot of people talk about Web 3, as if it's a different planet. As if like Web 1, Web 2, those conversations always feel like an evolution of the same thing, how a thing has grown. It's like how Earth has evolved. But when people talk about Web 3, it’s as if and I'll use my analogy leave Earth and go to this other place, which is like this third planet. Help me bridge that gap of how this is an evolution of the same thing and not this separate thing because it is talked about like the dark web, where it's like this whole other entity and visually I feel like you got to get a membership card or know the Secret Knock. And then they let you in the Web 3. It always feels like this separate thing, and not an evolution of the thing we have today. So what changes? Is it that the internet starts to live on different servers? Is it a different language that we're coding, help me understand how this is not us leaving this Web 2 behind? It's not like MySpace where nobody's there anymore and you're like, remember when that thing exists? That it is an evolution of the same thing.

[20:46] Hana Jacover:  

First of all, nobody else is still on MySpace. Because I mean, that would explain why all my friend requests are going unnoticed.

[20:57] Brandi Starr:   

I think we kind of left that behind.

[21:01] Hana Jacover:  

I'm looking for all the other people that learned how to code on MySpace. That's where I learned how to code.

[21:11] Brandi Starr:  

All of the music and Tom was everyone's best friend.

[21:17] Hana Jacover:   

But yes, to answer your question, I think language is really important. We love labels. We love to label things, we love to like -- the metaverse, for example, it does, it sounds like it's a completely different universe. That's how it's labeled. But before that, we just had virtual reality. We just had augmented reality. And all of those things are the same thing. It's just, I think the labels kind of become a point of almost accessibility, there's an accessibility problem there. Where if you can't track the labels, and like the history of the labels, that doesn't make sense. It's like jumping from point A to Z without understanding what's happening in between. And I think a lot of that is just relabeling. We're doing a lot of relabeling, then we're adding in these different layers of technology and these different concepts, like the concept of decentralization. That's not a theme necessarily, it's a concept that we're all trying to achieve through our brains and communities and different technologies, and things like that. So I do think that it's driven by labeling these different things that are really things that have existed for a while, like the blockchain has existed for a while. And then also thinking about the accessibility of like, let's fill in the gaps. So I think what's important is that education in between. When I started first learning about Web 3, I was like I don't understand what this is. It feels like you're going to a different planet. And what I think is important is to understand the foundation and everything that's kind of led up to this Web 3. So thinking about, even just like basic economics, going back to understanding why do we have $1? Why do we have the dollar bill? Why is that the money that we exchange with? To reading about why blockchain was created to understanding why Ethereum was created. So going back to -- and it's a lot, I don't have all of that up here in my brain. But it is a way for you to move from point A to point Z to understanding how we got to Web 3. So it is it's a lot to get into. It's like a deep dark tunnel. I think when you could just break it down, it is truly the evolution of the Internet. And we don't see it happening. Like we didn't really see Web 1 to Web 2, you can't see it, it just sort of happens. You start seeing Facebook on the rise, you start seeing Google on the rise. So I think there's these tipping points that allow us to kind of shift into oh okay, now we're really seeing. Everything that we're doing on a day-to-day basis lives, and we talk about it differently. We're not talking about our data being owned and Facebook and advertising and how problematic that is we're talking about community and creating and the blockchain and how we're moving from a very power-driven solution that's going to the view to more distributed more power to all power to all the creators of all the people that are then incentivized to continue to create and contribute.

[24:55] Brandi Starr:   

And then the other thing that you hit on that I wanted to dig more into is the community. Because community in both b2b companies wanting to build a community, as well as individuals wanting to be a part of a community has been a hot topic. In Episode 14 Revenue Rehab, I talked to Matt Heinz and Mike Rizzo, both who lead very predominant communities in marketing, about just the importance of community for your own personal growth. So if you haven't listened to Episode 14, after you finish this one, backup a few episodes and take a listen. But community is very much a hot topic and kind of a thing that a lot of b2b companies are trying to crack the nut. And so help me understand more of how Web 3 serves as an example, or helps in that journey for marketers.

[26:00] Hana Jacover:

And I'll go back too also for a second, thinking about decentralization. Community is the cornerstone of that, because we're relying on each other, we're not relying on one entity to drive decision making to drive, what's I'll use quote because I hate the term 'the morality' of good and bad, but like to drive what's good and what's not, what's valuable, and what's not valuable. So community is important, and especially in Web 3 is because it's not something that was introduced later on. In b2b community feels like something that's introduced now, where in Web 3, it's the cornerstone of Web 3 especially if you start looking into the NFT Community or industry. The decisions are driven by the community. Nothing happens typically without the vote of the community. The community drives the value of a project. The community is even doing the marketing for the project. So if you have a concept for a project, and you start by building a community around that, okay, this is why it's important, here's the incentives, here's the value, here's what you're going to get out of it. And if the community, starts to build around that. And so in order for it to build around that, we have to have issues that are important to the community. So it's all community driven, it's about people versus profit. So when I say, hey, community, I'm going to build a new project. And I know you all care about status. So my project is going to benefit you because it's going to give you status for XYZ, whatever it may be, or it's going to give you material things, or it's going to give you investments, which will then give you return monetarily so things that the community cares about. And then as that project grows, the owners of the project are responsible to the community just like there's a responsibility for companies to the board and their investors, you can view it as a very similar relationship where if I make a decision, the community is not happy about it, I have to answer to that. We have to course correct; we have to understand where we went wrong, and hear from the community to then make decisions that will allow us to get back on track, that then goes back to the goals that are driven by the community. So hopefully that answers your question. But I just think that Web 3 is doing a really great job of that exactly. And like I said, it's the cornerstone, it's not an afterthought. So they create projects, in Web 3 you create projects, knowing that community is your number one community is the only way the project will succeed. It's the only way anybody's going to benefit in terms of -- well, unless you decide to do like a money grab or if you are hacking, that's part of Web 3 is understanding the security issues behind some of the trustless network, but essentially, community should be your number one concern.

[29:23] Brandi Starr:   

I know NFT's has been a big conversation around b2b marketers, and different people have tried putting out their own NFT's for different things. Help give me an example of what a b2b project could be. So for those who are unfamiliar, so they get, more tactical example of what that could be. And then how are people interacting with the communities? How are they getting this vote and input? 

[29:57] Hana Jacover:  

One thing that I think could be really interesting is if you have an organization and you don't have to start with like a full-blown company, but even just like a sector of that company, there's something called DAOs. So decentralized, autonomous. Oh my gosh, why am I blanking on the O? Oh my gosh, I totally blanked on it sorry. But a DAO is essentially driven by bottoms up. So you have, instead of one entity or like a board of directors that would make decisions, your decisions are made by the DAO. So you have a token, which means that you are a part of a DAO if you can have like a certain percentage, and that DAO then makes decisions and the number of tokens that you have allows you to have a bigger vote. So if you could see a company electing a DAO or having a DAO in order to make decisions. So instead of the decisions for the company, or certain decisions made by the company itself, or the owners of different departments, you could have the DAO making those decisions of how are we going to spend our dollars this quarter, but it's not up to us, it's up to the DAO. The DAO is going to decide what's important to the community, and they're going to use their voting power to tell us. So in the end, you don't get to go against that, and that's part of the problem where it's like you have to kind of fully transition into it. Because at the end of the day, if you're an organization, you can do whatever you want. But if you go with that model, you say, okay, this is what the DAO voted for, this is what the community voted for, so that's what those dollars are going to be used for. So that would be an interesting use case. And that would be I think, kind of like on the extreme side that we won't see for a while. But you could also have a use case where it's more around creative, and access to certain levels of creative. So if you have, for example, an NFT, and a b2b company develops an NFT, there's some value there, maybe it's partnership with an artist, or a thought leader. And then having access to that NFT by purchasing that NFT, you then have access to certain levels of okay, you get a one-on-one every quarter with this thought leader or this desired CMO or this investor that you get to talk business with. So your investment is coming straight back to you in the form of some sort of incentive, some sort of value that is important. And that would be another way that I think b2b companies could go probably the more likely route of giving something to get something right. It's always about that incentive, I'm going to exchange and when you win, we all win. It's not about you pay me money, I win. It's you provide an investment, we provide something back, if it's successful, we all win. If it's not successful, we don't win.

[33:09] Brandi Starr:

Okay, that that helps. I always like tactical examples. And I looked it up just for everyone. The DAO is going to be a decentralized autonomous organization, the O is organization.

[33:25] Hana Jacover:

Thank you! See this is why I say I am literally not a Web 3 expert; I am a normal human being that is just so passionate about these things. So you get to just go learn about them and share your knowledge. 

[33:39] Brandi Starr:

Yeah, and that's exactly why I wanted to talk to you because there are a lot of Web 3 experts, and for me, listening to them, I tend to get more confused, as opposed to less. And I know just because you and I have had conversations in the past, you break things down very, very easily for us to all understand. So I thank you so much for that. And so talking about our challenges is just the first step and nothing changes if nothing changes. And so, in traditional therapy, the therapist gives the client some homework, but at Revenue Rehab, I like to flip that on its head and have you to give us some homework. So if you could summarize your key takeaways, and then give our listeners that one thing, what is our one action item coming out of this conversation for us to help move our organizations in the direction of embracing Web 3?

[34:45] Hana Jacover:

So takeaways, web 3 is an umbrella. So I think that understanding how we got here to talking about web 3 is really important. So doing that research and starting to just understand some of the things that are driving web 3. A lot of people are going to find that they don't like the answer, it's very interesting answer. And I think just doing the education, reading what's already out there, you don't have to reinvent the wheel but understanding how that will was made is really important. Literally go to bitcoin.org, go to etherium.org, read their white papers, read Vitalik white paper, read the white papers of why they created these things that they did, and that will give some insight into why this whole thing is building and building and building. So I think that's an important takeaway, is just start researching, it's worth your time. And there is a broader, bigger picture to it, because it's more than just about your job. It's about the way that we live our lives and just kind of how our world operates. And then I think the other takeaway is don't be afraid of being extra extra creative when it comes to your role in b2b. B2B is so boring. And I know people are sick of hearing that, but it really is. I am inspired when I work with teams that are super creative, I'm seeing this behind me, because I love like the Chili Piper team, for example, that's a team that is just not afraid to be creative and do things differently. When it comes to marketing. And you go to Web 3, people aren't scared to do that people aren't scared to be themselves, people aren't scared to talk about things that people typically would shy away from. People aren't scared to be as Uber creative as possible, coming up with things that you might not understand. But other people are like, damn, that's really cool. So don't be afraid to do those things. And if you need inspiration, web 3 is a great place to kind of get that. And I think three, even though we didn't really talk about this is one that's important to me, and that I always talk to my clients about is to just think about your why. Why are you doing what you're doing? Because if you're not pulling inspiration from your why every single day, then what are you doing, it's a big reason as to why I made a shift into working directly with people. And where I can make the connection to web 3 is that I wanted to remove that third party, I wanted to remove that layer and go direct to the person that I could help in the best way possible. So if you haven't defined your why and think of it outside of just, I'm showing up to work and doing the best that I can, in my role, think bigger than that. Think bigger than that, and let it drive you every single day. And make sure that your passions are aligned to that. And I don't care if you are passionate about 5,10, 15 different things like we are multi-passionate individuals, and we shouldn't be scared of that and making sure that whatever it is we're just connecting to our why.

[38:06] Brandi Starr:

Awesome. And so what's our one thing? What's our action item?

[38:11] Hana Jacover:

I would say, out of those takeaways, the action item, there's so many I'm trying to figure out what would be the one. I think there's a really amazing podcast that I would want people to go listen to. And people will recognize this name, because it's Chris Dixon, Andreessen Horowitz and Naval, and it's called The Wonders of Web 3. And I think the action item is to go listen to that podcast because they're way, way smarter than I am. And they will have you think about not just web 3, but just where we are as a society in a completely different light. And it might help you sort of dive into some of these things and say, oh, I know where to start. And I wish I would have started there. I wish I would have started with that podcast. It's two hours, just warning you so take some time and check it out. And I think having the credibility of Chris Dixon being on it, everybody in b2b knows Andreessen Horowitz. We can obviously give some criticism there too, but I think that it would be an important lesson for people.

[39:31] Brandi Starr:

Okay, perfect. We will definitely link to that in the show notes so that everybody easy commitment, 2 hours. I know some people have commute still that are that long, or while you're grocery shopping or whatever you're doing where you've got some time. I will definitely give that a listen myself as well. Hana, I have enjoyed our discussion but that's our time for today. But before we go, how can our audience connect with you. I know you offer coaching, so for anyone who is looking for that, please tell us what kind of coaching and how people can stay connected to you.

[40:13] Hana Jacover:

Yeah, absolutely. So I do professional development and leadership coaching. My goal is to provide accessible coaching, particularly to those who would qualify themselves as kind of those hyper achievers, those ones that tend to get impostor syndrome burnout, and just kind of help you connect to your why, connect to your, your innermost self in order to show up the way you want to show up. I mean really LinkedIn is probably the easiest the fastest. So LinkedIn, we'll stick with that. You can also find me on Twitter, and I'm on TikTok for those on TikTok but @thehypemama.

[40:52] Brandi Starr:

Awesome. I was going to say I hope to connect with you via TikTok, but we will make sure to put Hana's LinkedIn link in the show notes as well if you want to connect. Thank you so much for joining me and thanks, everyone for joining us today. I hope that you have enjoyed my conversation with Hana. I can't believe we are already at the end. See you next time.

[41:20] Outro: 

You've been listening to Revenue Rehab with your host Brandi Starr. Your session is now over but the learning has just begun. Join our mailing list and catch up on all our shows at revenuerehab.live. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at Revenue Rehab. This concludes this week's session. We'll see you next week.